Comments on: Modern Christology https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/#comment-535941 Sun, 10 Jan 2016 03:38:38 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34591#comment-535941 Ricke, I think Brant is getting that from Mullen’s, The Assembly of the Gods: The Divine Council in Canaanite and Early Hebrew Literature, While that book is somewhat dated. (It came out in the late 80’s as I recall – I sadly lost my copy which makes me even sadder now that I see what it’s selling for!) A lot of other scholars picked up on that in the 35 years since though and I think it’s fairly ubiquitous now.

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By: ricke https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/#comment-535939 Sat, 09 Jan 2016 03:36:07 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34591#comment-535939 With regard to what the Book of Mormon says about God, I believe that it might be too easy to classify it as modalistic as apparently Moench does. In the first volume of his six-volume commentary on the Book of Mormon, Brant Gardner has a very enlightening excursis titled The Nephite Understanding of God. He develops the thesis that the Book of Mormon writers were very much in tune with one variant of the ancient Hebrew understanding of God in which El Elyon is the Father God, Jehovah is his son, as are others of the Great Council, and there are sons of Jehovah among humans/Israel. For one example, his commentary is quite helpful in understanding how Mary could have been called the “mother of God” in the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon, rather than as we have it today “the mother of the Son of God.”

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/#comment-535887 Mon, 04 Jan 2016 21:10:31 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34591#comment-535887 To add, I think Mormons have it much easier mainly because we reject inerrancy of any sort, continuing revelation allows fairly radical change, but also because we just don’t have much that’s akin to creeds. (The closest is the articles of faith but they function fairly differently) While I’m very sympathetic to people like Jim Faulconer saying Mormonism is ethics/practice oriented rather than theologically oriented I’m a bit skeptical of that. I do think that our theology is best seen as anthropology rather than ontology though. (You see this especially in the Pratt versus Young conflict) This leads to a rather different approach to theology IMO. This isn’t to deny theological conflicts – often over the age and nature of the earth – but to perhaps contextualize them more. (I’d also argue that the political dimension of such things matters more contemporarily rather than the ontological ones – further we’re more open to change than what we seen in traditional creedal Christianity)

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/#comment-535886 Mon, 04 Jan 2016 21:07:23 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34591#comment-535886 Dave, I guess my question is that someone may concede the historical issues but deciding how to develop an established theology is far more unclear. To give an example from our own history consider the ontology of spirits versus recent work the last decade arguing that the conception of spirits vs. spirits origins were quite different. i.e. no intelligence/spirit divide. A person may well concede the history but not think it matters historically.

Now admittedly for traditional Christians the way to deal with this is different from Mormons due to the whole notion of continuing revelation vs. closed canon. But even a lot of people who concede a closed cannon might think that the creeds, especially the early ones, are quasi-inspired as representing theology.

Put simply it just doesn’t seem true that acknowledging the history concedes the history. Once you throw in a strong skepticism of the texts (i.e. reject inerrancy in the Bible) then of course all bets are off. This may lead to more skepticism of traditional theology or simply think the development means the early beliefs don’t matter as much.

To me the most interesting thing in traditional Christianity, as I noted, is how many people exposed to the textual, historical and theological conundrums end up abandoning traditional Christianity. To my eyes (perhaps incorrectly) it seems the move is often a de-mythologizing move where Christ as symbol is held as important but Christ as historically divine is thrown out. (And often most activities of an interventionist God) I’m constantly surprised by just how common those views are among the educated in Christianity.

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By: Dave https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/#comment-535885 Mon, 04 Jan 2016 19:32:58 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34591#comment-535885 Thanks for the comments, everyone.

It was Hurtado’s recent work that established how quickly Jesus came to be regarded as divine in the early Christian communities. That is why the author’s statement of the problem is not merely theological but relates to religious worship and practice: early Christian communities were worshipping Jesus as divine before they resolved or even posed most of the Christological questions that exercised theologians for the following several centuries. The idea that practice precedes doctrinal development, rather than the other way around, should not be a shock to Latter-day Saints. For example, we’ve been practicing the Word of Wisdom for 150 years but still can’t explain it coherently. “Don’t drink tea” is easy to state and practice but tough to explain in detail. “We worship Jesus as divine” is easy to state and practice but much, much tougher to explain in detail.

As for the history versus theology distinction — it’s not like a better biography of Jesus would solve the theological issues raised by Christian claims about his nature or divinity. Historical Jesus scholarship is of great interest to scholars and believers alike, but faith issues, whether these generic Christian issues or specifically LDS issues, simply do not turn on historical facts. I think this is the sense in which the distinction between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith is so relevant to modern Christological discussions. But, as noted in the post, that distinction does not really enter into Mormon discussions.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/#comment-535882 Mon, 04 Jan 2016 16:50:20 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34591#comment-535882 Terry, how many of those are primarily theological works and how many are primarily historical works? It seems to me that is a significant issue. Also which traditions accept what theology matters a lot. So-called mainline protestantism has been moving to a fairly liberal theology with frankly many theologians largely abandoning a lot of christology as a practical matter. (Or giving only lip service) This was true even decades ago, although the process has accelerated more.

Put an other way, my sense is that if anything people who might acknowledge the history as being much more complex than traditional theology paints are also those least likely to accept a more anthropomorphic conception of God and instead move much closer to a vague theist or even deist model. More conservative groups like the Calvinistic dominated Evangelicals are perhaps less likely to adopt a lot of these revisionist views.

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By: Terry H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/#comment-535880 Mon, 04 Jan 2016 14:54:22 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34591#comment-535880 This issue is currently in a bit of flux with three new works from Christian scholars: Larry Hurtado, Richard Bauckham and Crispin H.T. Fletcher-Louis. Hurtado has just released a 3rd edition of his classic “One God, One Lord, Early Christian Devotion and Ancient Jewish Monotheism”. It came out right before Christmas. This 3rd edition updates the last one (from 1988, I think) and contains a 20,000 word Epilogue with notes addressing all of the recent research and issues since the last one. He even deals with Margaret Barker’s Great Angel and Crispin H.T. Fletcher’s reviews of his work. Bauckham’s last one on this issue, so far [not counting his Jesus: A Very Short Introduction from Oxford (2011)] is Jesus and the God of Israel: God Crucified and Other Studies on the New Testament’s Christology of the Divine Identity (2008). Crispin H.T. Fletcher has just released Jesus Monotheism: Vol. 1 which discusses the entire issue and builds upon Hurtado and Bauckham. I have to confess that this is an issue which I’m just beginning to study, but all three of these scholars have something to add. All of the books I’ve mentioned above are available electronically. The Jesus Monotheism is the most detailed and longest, although Bauckham is apparently working on a two volume work on this subject. Crispin-Fletcher in particular uses more pseudepigraphical (sp?) work than the others. In 2011, Brill published 4 volumes in what is called “The Handbook for the Study of the Historical Jesus” ed. by Tom Holmen and Stanley E. Porter. Its over 3700 pages and has contributions (sometimes more than one) from nearly everyone in the field except N.T. Wright. All three of those I mentioned are in this. I found it online for free but I can’t remember how I did it and have lost the links. Its over 20 megabytes, but its an excellent asset as well.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/#comment-535876 Mon, 04 Jan 2016 03:25:46 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34591#comment-535876 It seems to me that by rejecting the “omnis” attached with Greek philosophy that the two natures of Christ pose relatively little problem for Mormons. Christ’s divinity is seen as either a characteristic of authority, or his pre-mortal spirit’s stature and development, his attunement with God the Father, or potentially for a certain subset of Mormon’s the nature of his literal father in terms of his birth.

This is quite unlike traditional Christianity where honestly to me it seems like the demands of how they take God are fully at odds with mortality.

To me it’s the mortality of Christ that is the great stumbling block for traditional Christianity. Unsurprisingly it’s that rather than the “god of the philosophers” that gets dropped first. (For a good example of this consider this old discussion by Bill Vallicella – I get Bill to see the conflict he raises poses problems for a divine Jesus. His reaction is to drop Jesus.)

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By: ji https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/#comment-535872 Mon, 04 Jan 2016 02:12:18 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34591#comment-535872 I’m fine with the Jesus of the New Testament and the Book of Mormon, and the whisperings of the Holy Spirit. Dear God, please save us from intellectual and academic re-interpretations.

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By: Robert C. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/01/modern-christology/#comment-535871 Mon, 04 Jan 2016 01:52:29 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=34591#comment-535871 Nice post, Dave. I look forward to your future ones. In case it’s not on your radar, Givens’s Wrestling the Angel has a chapter on Christology with some nice thoughts and references too.

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