Comments on: The New Harmonized First Vision Account https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Cameron N. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537799 Wed, 11 May 2016 05:17:49 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537799 Harmonization is a poor word. I would prefer compilation or combination. Both are more accurate and more indicative of the purpose of merging them together.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537794 Tue, 10 May 2016 17:43:56 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537794 Yes, that’s why I dislike harmonization as it tends to be poor at communicating why there should be differences. I wish the articles by the church dealt with the psychology of memory more. What harmonization does do though is suggest the consistent parts are the key parts. Again not necessarily the most accurate since a memory might become more fixed later and then repeated and strengthen with repetition. Typically, although not necessarily universally, earlier memories are more accurate than later ones.

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By: JR https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537793 Tue, 10 May 2016 17:25:49 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537793 Clark, I agree. That is precisely why it is, for some, more helpful to point to literature on memory, cognitive science, etc. and to acknowledge differences in the accounts, than it is to attempt a harmonization that doesn’t quite work.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537791 Tue, 10 May 2016 17:18:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537791 JR, if someone demands total consistency I can’t help them beyond noting that’s not how memories or testimonies work psychologically. The details will always shift around a bit. To me that’s minor. If it’s not to others I probably can’t convince them beyond pointing to the literature in psychology and cognitive science.

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By: JR https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537789 Tue, 10 May 2016 16:54:02 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537789 Clark, Your resolution may be what happened, but it is contrary to the language of the first version. “In the first one he’s so frustrated he doesn’t think any will do” is not consistent with “there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ…” Your version reflects a tentative conclusion; there is nothing tentative about Joseph’s conclusion as reported in the first version. The first version leaves no room for praying to find out which church was right and reports no such prayer. The difference (even if not “huge”) is enough to make some of us who find authenticity in the first version quite uncomfortable with the use made (by the Church, and by us as missionaries decades ago) of the contrary point of the canonized version. It is enough to draw into question the wisdom of insisting on the historicity of [a particular version – harmonized or not – of] the “founding events” of the Church as if such detailed historicity were necessary to avoid the entire Restoration being a fraud. The harmonization effort is one hinged to historical claims which at the detail level may be often misperceived, misunderstood, misremembered, or misreported, and yet seem to me quite unnecessary to Joseph’s ultimately expansive and still open-ended vision [a different use of the word :) ] of the nature and destiny of mankind individually or as the family of God and of the possibility of a Zion society. Rather than attempt harmonization, for some of us, it is better to acknowledge conflicting reports, changing memory, loose language, and that ” there have been times when … leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes” and move on to what matters more.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537787 Tue, 10 May 2016 15:52:00 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537787 JR, that’s definitely a contradiction and presumably his memory shifted on that point. I don’t see that as a major point as the basics are the same – he was studying the religions and couldn’t decide among them and went to God to see what to do about it. The only difference was the strength of his frustration. In the first one he’s so frustrated he doesn’t think any will do and in the latter he downplays this frustration to ask which one he should join.

It’s differences like this that I think get downplayed in the harmonization and is why I dislike harmonization. But at the same time I don’t see it as a huge difference.

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By: JR https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537786 Tue, 10 May 2016 14:21:54 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537786 Clark (21.1), Your response as to seeking forgiveness may be accurate, but it does not address the contradiction that I find troublesome. That is, in the first version Joseph had already determined before the prayer and vision that none of the churches were right, while in the canonized version he had not been able “to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong” and prayed to find out “which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.” Cf., from the 1832 version:

“by searching the scriptures I found that mand did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and liveing faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the new testament”

I have not found any satisfactory “harmonization” of this conflict, though one can be attempted by distinguishing what was in Joseph’s mind as a result of searching the scriptures from what had entered into his heart. That seems weak to me. Is there a better solution? I suspect natural memory modification as an explanation of the different accounts, but that preserves honesty at the expense of accuracy (which BTW is OK with me).

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537764 Mon, 09 May 2016 02:52:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537764 I’m not sure the first version of the first vision (sorry, couldn’t resist) makes the separation you make. Feeling his sins is definitely emphasized more in several of the versions. His concern for his soul which is partially tied to sin is also tied in the first version to the different denominations. It’s not spelled out quite as it is in the later ones, but there definitely is a connection there. However I agree he doesn’t present himself as praying to find out but more as finding no answer he thinks he has no alternative but pray directly. The emphasis is quite different.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537763 Mon, 09 May 2016 02:46:54 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537763 Again, I’m really familiar with the accounts. I seem different emphasis and different things discussed. You’ll have to spell out your argument. There’s differences, no doubt. That the differences are massive contradictions I’m a bit more skeptical of. Not mentioning in one account all the people you mention in an other isn’t really a contradiction by any stretch of the imagination. In one account he said he saw many angels in the vision.

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By: jader3rd https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537760 Mon, 09 May 2016 00:44:31 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537760 I, for one, am glad that a harmonization is at least possible, and do not mind that it exists.
As for why Joseph Smith didn’t have a memorized speech to relate the experience, every time it came up; I believe is due to the persecution he received right after it happened. A wonderful thing happened to him, and when he shared it everyone, he was beaten down by everyone but his family. So when it came time to start sharing the experience again, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was trying his best to judge what he could say which would be true enough, for whom he was writing to.

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By: Jettboy https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537747 Sun, 08 May 2016 14:55:10 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537747 “Try that in an undergraduate history essay and you will probably get an F.”

Good thing reality is not an undergraduate history essay.

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By: ldspsygenius https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537739 Sat, 07 May 2016 21:20:18 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537739 I think the differences in number of people presents has been addressed a couple of times. Unless you’re going to respond to those explanations I’m not sure why you keep bring it up.

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By: JR https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537738 Sat, 07 May 2016 20:11:55 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537738 To me, the handwritten version has a “voice” of conviction; some also find it in the later versions. I don’t find it in the “harmonization.”

The contradiction among the versions interesting to me is not the one or two beings issue (which may or may not be a contradiction). The two personage canonized version is now frequently cited in defense of anti-trinitarianism, but is not needed, in view of Stephen’s vision recorded in the New Testament. (Though some anti-trinitarians who are strict mono-theists simply deny that Stephen saw two distinct beings and others deny that Jesus was God/a God. I don’t know what trinitarians do with Stephen’s vision.) What might be foundationally more significant than the appearance of a second being, who only introduces the first, is the fact that in the first, handwritten version of the vision, JS did not pray to find out which church to join or which was right. He had already determined that none were. Instead, he went to pray for forgiveness of his own sins. The canonized version changes fundamentally the nature and content of the prayer and the response by making them a matter of seeking information as to what to do/which church to join, rather than relief from the burden of guilt. I have not grasped what various harmonizers are doing with this contradiction or what the critics of contradictions are doing when they focus on numbers of personages rather than the basic content of the prayer and the response.

Could JS have been describing two very different events? Maybe there was a first vision and a second vision that have been assumed to be the same, but were different responses to different prayers. Maybe memory changed. Memory research in the last few decades has shown that it does that and that a revised (or implanted) memory may bear no relationship to actual historical events, but have the same emotional/psychological/reality for the person as any memory of actual events. This could lead to an authentic voice of conviction in an account that has little or no correspondence to historical reality.

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By: Also Exiled https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537737 Sat, 07 May 2016 19:11:16 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537737 No, Clark. Joseph’s wildly divergent accounts are not typical for “a real witness of a real event.” If you can’t perceive that, I’m not going to be the one to explain it to you.

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By: Left Field https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2016/05/the-new-harmonized-first-vision-account/#comment-537736 Sat, 07 May 2016 18:25:37 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=35232#comment-537736 Okay, maybe it IS a hard concept.

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