To the other point, I pointed out books on the translation that deal with the KJV quotations. It’s off topic for this discussion. The answer is just that the text is a loose translation that quote the KJV to deal with similar conceptions. Again, perhaps not persuasive to you but it is a pretty widely discussed model.

I don’t see this as arguing really for or against the fraud model. At best it’d adjust one element of it – the date when Joseph started claiming angelic ordination. I think the evidence is strong that this should be dated to 1829-30 after all despite not talking about it much.

“both models incorporate the obvious point that Joseph used KJV language”

You’re not addressing the issue (I sense because it is an inconvenient one that you don’t actually have an answer for), which is that the Book of Mormon not only contains KJV language, but more specifically contains verbatim passages from the King James translation of the New Testament. It is highly improbable that the character of Alma (assuming he were historical) could have said that. It would have had to have been a huge miracle.

“You’re also conflating two issues: the nature of the text and the method of translation”

Again, what you mean here is absolutely unclear. A text claimed to be an actual translation of ancient peoples in the Americas before the New Testament was even written that contains verbatim passages from the New Testament lends far more credence to the fraud model than whatever in the world you are arguing about the priesthood restoration lending credence to the faithful model. I’m not conflating anything.

Another approach to seeing Mosiah 15 as integrated in the evolution of Mormonism is to examine the early unpublished revelation on the pure language, which explicitly states that Son Ahman is the greatest part of Ahman, and is the first creation of Ahman. Being the first creation of Ahman and the greatest part of Ahman clearly mirrors Mosiah 15’s claim that Jesus is the Father because he was conceived by the power of God.

Q (28) I’m pointing out problems in one part due to neglected data. I don’t think I’m doing what you suggest although it’s obviously a model I don’t accept.

Q (29) If you’re interested in Brant Gardner’s theory on this it’s weird you’d turn to a book not addressing it. I gave the link to the book. You’re also conflating two issues: the nature of the text and the method of translation. (It’s a common error unfortunately) One could hold to Royal Skousen’s model of how the translation proceeded while still thinking it a loose translation based in part on information and patterns in Joseph’s mind.

In any case, both models incorporate the obvious point that Joseph used KJV language in his translations and his revelation. So you have for instance a quote of Song of Solomon 6 in D&C 109:54 even though there’s no real connection between the two.

The point really is the meaning of the text and not this loose manner of translation.

I acknowledge that my comment, although related, is a little tangential (a tangent that Clark and others kept responding to nonetheless). But I think that it is useful to the reader of the OP to know what the similarities are between Alma 13 and the KJV NT passages. I, like many readers of this blog, am well acquainted with the BOM and have read it many times. Still, I don’t have an eidetic memory and find it useful to see what the similarities are. The OP IS dismissing critics’ skepticism of similarities as trivial and beyond the point, so it would have been quite useful to point out the verbatim passages.

And yet you write: “For the fraudulent model things are a bit trickier”

You are subtly trying to make a case against the fraud model. But alas, the fraud model really isn’t much of a model, nor does it need to be. If the faithful model can’t be substantiated with lots of convincing evidence, the Book of Mormon is by default a forgery.

The point isn’t which model is correct merely what data both models have to include. Which is why pointing out parallels is pointless unless it is pointing out something a model hasn’t incorporated. But the faithful model of the Book of Mormon already explicitly incorporates KJV quotations and paraphrases. One might disagree with the ways various submodels do this of course. But that’s not what this thread is about. Rather this is about whether BoM texts about priesthood are appropriately dealt with by each broad class of model.

The issue of the Apocalypse and other such things is what traditions were around prior to the writing of Hebrews prior to the destruction of the temple. That’s important for the faithful model although not really for the forgery model except to the degree such elements were part and parcel of the esoteric folk tradition in early Mormonism.

As for differences vs. similarities, the differences don’t necessarily serve as solid evidence of authenticity, but the verbatim similarities with the KJV NT make JS’s claims about the BOM highly suspect. For Alma to have said verbatim things that Paul wrote centuries later on a completely different continent would have to be a special sort of miracle for it to be true. I simply don’t understand how different forgery models are neglecting the text of the Book of Mormon. If anything it seems like the faithful models are neglecting the verbatim passages from the KJV NT.

On the Apocalypse of Abraham and Hebrews, a miracle is not needed for elements of the former to appear in the latter. The authors of the two texts lived in the same area and were of the same cultural background.