Comments on: The Book of the Weeping God https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Kerry A. Shirts https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542076 Tue, 11 Jul 2017 17:51:23 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542076 Ah! Well, I shall have to keep myself apprised of the situation. I appreciate the comments. As usual, you are a delight to converse with. I appreciate it.

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542074 Tue, 11 Jul 2017 15:58:33 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542074 Kerry, depending upon what you mean, that’s not entirely true. There have been a reasonable number of articles in the Ensign on changes to the Book of Mormon as well as changes to the JST. So for example the latter article notes “throughout his life the Prophet continued to work on the manuscripts, editing and making further changes, preparing them for publication virtually until the time of his death.”

It’s true that while there are lots of articles on the variants in the Book of Mormon, especially since Skousen’s work starting in the late 80’s, but far fewer on variations in the JST or related texts. Although there are a few, such as this article on Moses.

Variants in the D&C got a lot more attention given the pretty big changes from the Book of Commandments. Still, I think when lessons are taught the variant readings don’t get discussed much nor theological significance. You can of course find lots of books that discuss such things but it’s rarely mentioned in the lesson manuals. That’s significant both due to I think telling us a lot about the nature of the changes in the JST but also to undermine the common view it was restoring an ur-text. A great example of that is how Joseph forgot he’d already translated Matthew 26 and redid it, often with pretty substantial differences. Yet in the footnotes to our Bible that isn’t mentioned nor are the variant readings.

Regarding the development of the OT canon I agree completely. I don’t think it makes much sense why so many Mormons are uncomfortable with the documentary hypothesis given how much our own texts push that view of the Old Testament.

To your larger points, I truly wish the Church would come out with a new edition of the scriptures that mention variant readings more. Actually entirely redone footnotes really are needed. The current footnotes are embarrassingly bad. Rather than just give what an obscure or archaic KJV means I wish they’d do a rewrite of full verses in the footnotes. Also have all the JST variants plus some of the commentary from Joseph’s later revisions. Say the colorful exegesis to Genesis 1:1 from the KFD. I’d love all the first vision variants added to the PoGP too.

I’d also love a bit more engagement with the documentary hypothesis too, although that might be hoping for too much. Still a lot of apologists embrace the DH since questions about the priestly and deuteronomist traditions are pretty relevant for the Book of Mormon. Kevin Barney has done a lot there.

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By: Kerry A. Shirts https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542065 Tue, 11 Jul 2017 03:35:29 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542065 The manuscript traditions are just not mentioned or pushed by the church in any manner, whether the unique LDS scriptures or the Bible. Once I began studying the manuscript evidence in the Bible it changed my entire perception of almost everything in it. I knew there were problems, being raised with Joseph Smith saying “as far as translated correctly,” but that hardly scratches the surface. In fact, it appears to me that it is a minor point and the actual manuscripts and the evidence of what happened from that angle is vastly more important and when viewed critically challenges Mormonism far greater than the mere translation issue. It is all fascinating to discover and discuss. I’ll never forget studying the early Christian discussion of how the Bible was canonized. There was literally nothing sacred, sacrosanct, or revelatory about the canonization process. It was truly political. That made me reel. It was in Sozomon’s “Church History” if I remember correctly, it’s been awhile since I looked into it. Fun stuff all this discovery about the scriptures.

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By: Brent Metcalfe https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542054 Mon, 10 Jul 2017 13:28:01 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542054 Kerry, if memory serves, Colby Townsend (recently?) pointed out the emendation to Terryl who seemed completely in the dark on the manuscript evidence.

Scholars of various disciplines need to spend more time investigating the manuscript traditions of the sources they cite, or at least begin talking to those of us who have already done much of the legwork.

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By: Kerry A. Shirts https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542053 Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:23:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542053 Hello Brent. Good to see you again. I just read it. The second emendation does appear to me more metaphorical than how Terryl Givens renders it and expounds on it in his book. I shall have to think on this. did Givens give any indication there was an amendment to this? It’s been quite awhile since I have read his book. Age is catching up to me. How come you are the only one who has ever seen or commented on this? (I suspect you aren’t but my ignorance and naivete are showing)

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By: Brent Metcalfe https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542052 Mon, 10 Jul 2017 06:42:08 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542052 Kerry, you may want to take a look at my comment above because JS excised the reference to God weeping in his final emendations to OT2 (Moses 7:28).

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By: Kerry A. Shirts https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542049 Mon, 10 Jul 2017 03:29:02 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542049 A fascinating discussion. The one item I think is missing is I wonder how God on seeing all the evil simply weeps instead of doing what LDS theology says today He does, send the Holy Ghost down to convince the evil doers they are wrong and help them repent. It’s almost positively weird to me that all God does is weep about it. That is hardly a convincing theodicy is it? Just musing. The one missing ingredient here is the use of the Holy Ghost. That just makes precious little sense considering the teaching of the church today on the role of the Holy Ghost.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542047 Sun, 09 Jul 2017 23:13:20 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542047 John, sounds like you put most of the techniques of the art of memory as being quite a bit older than the Roman era. (Since what you describe is characteristic of the renaissance and late antiquity versions – the medieval one was perhaps a bit more restrained in what images one could use)

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By: John Lundwall https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542041 Sun, 09 Jul 2017 00:24:23 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542041 Ben H.
Great little post on Moriancumer. I came to similar conclusions quite some time ago, but never wrote them down.

I would say some of this is more deterministic than we might think. You see, we have forgotten how the oral world worked, and there are determined cognitive consequences to oral society. Two of the consequences of orality (here defined as a culture where the vast majority of the population does not read or write and therefore utilizes oral noetic strategies within their culture) are polytheism and theocratic rule.

In order to pass down complex information associated with all the concerns of the society (agriculture, technology, medicine, biology, social norms, calendars, festival cycles, etc.) an oral person must encode memories upon objects easily seen that display, in some analogical sense, a similarity to the thing that must be remembered. Oral cultures are dualistic, and all the functions of nature and culture are divided into male and female rationales. By the consequences of this oral memory theater, these functions are placed within a pantheon of deities, male and female, that are assigned to these functions and turn out often to be the symbolic key to keep the memories organized. This happens organically as a natural consequence of the oral psyche.

Further, in oral cultures, as far as I am aware, there is never a word in their vocabulary that correlates with our modern word “religion.” Oral societies do not divide the “secular” from the “religious” from the “political” from the “economic.” These are literate categories and more modern divisions. Rather, oral societies seek to replicate cosmic functions in their religious/political order, but the object of the order is not to create a religion or political system. This happens organically, as a natural consequence of the people who are seeking to live within a sort of “cosmic harmony” with nature.

The consequence of this feature of orality is the leaders of the tribes and civilizations tend to be both priests and kings, and the clan is both political and religious simultaneously. We call this theocracy, but really it is a culture that doesn’t see an ontological difference between religious and political ideas. Strange for us, because our literacy shapes the way we think, and out literacy divides these functions into more abstract concepts and categories.

The invention of writing and the slow increase of literate thinking starts changing culture and civilization. And of course I am not saying everyone’s ideas of God(s) and how they choose to believe is totally predetermined. Of course not. But I am saying that if you, I, or Bruce R. McConkie were born as oral thinkers in an oral society, we would be polytheists and would have a political-religious ideology that would include the gods ruling over our economic and territorial concerns and control. By default we will have a god of war to help us out when we war. The leader of the pantheon tends to congregate the features of the rest of the pantheon, and over time henotheistic pressures make the chief god the war god. For the Israelites, Yahweh was both a god of compassion and a god of destruction as a result.

Christianity is perhaps the first world religion to be managed by texts. This has enormous consequences as to how Christ becomes shaped and defined from its origins.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542032 Fri, 07 Jul 2017 01:53:11 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542032 Ben I don’t disagree. I think it’s hard to balance these things and say whether we’re getting better or worse. Of course by many measures the world is so dramatically better than even 40 years ago let alone 400 that it’s not even funny. But it may well be, much like the Nephites, that our prosperity sets the seeds of our destruction. I certainly hope not, although the last few years of politics have me more worried than I’ve been since the days of my youth in the cold war.

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By: Ben H https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542031 Fri, 07 Jul 2017 01:05:42 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542031 John, thanks for these ideas. I absolutely think that the difference between the OT theocracy and the underdog status of Christians in the NT has an impact on the message that comes through. Some of the way you put it makes it sound a bit more deterministic than I would embrace, but the general line of thinking you are pursuing I think is very fertile and there is real illumination to be found. I have some related thoughts in the paper this post is taken from. Here is a post I did a while back on how politics affects the Book of Ether.

Clark, I totally agree that the church and its members have gained positive things from the surrounding culture as well. I think God was working in the world to set up the conditions for the church to be reestablished, and continues to work in various ways beyond the direct actions of the church. Christ’s message from his personal ministry continues to have a major influence in Western culture, playing out in new ways, even as more people move away from religion as such. Some of these ways have good and bad sides, as people run with this or that piece of the message in their own direction. I tend to see Hellenism as more of a new kind of idolatry for the Jews than displacing idolatry as a whole, though, so I’m not sure about your reading of the captivity and return. We’re working from pretty scanty evidence, though, so I’m certainly open to there having been upsides to it. It does seem to have strengthened the Jewish commitment to their identity as a people, as have their other travails over the centuries since Moses. Interestingly their slavery in Egypt doesn’t seem to have had the same effect, maybe because they didn’t have as developed a scriptural tradition and such to rally around at the time.

You’re right that Mormons are less racist now than we were in the 19th century; you could say that about just about everyone, though, so I’m not sure that came predominantly from outside influences. We were much less racist than the surrounding culture in the early years of the church, and much more egalitarian with regard to women, so there too I’m not sure how to draw the trajectory. The sexual revolution really has not been very kind to women on the whole, no matter how much people may have used egalitarian language. Some really interesting articles just the past few days show how mixed a bag it is, and how we are slowly recognizing the depth of the problems, and even starting to question the basic strategies we have employed in the West to work for equality. Consider this article on rediscovering the benefits of gender segregation, this one on sexual harassment in entrepreneurial circles, and this one on objectification on campus (from a while back, which you pointed me to).

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542022 Thu, 06 Jul 2017 05:46:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542022 Ben, I wonder that as well. Of course not everything of the exile and return was bad. We as Mormons might look slightly askance at the move to a thoroughgoing monotheism with only hints or the prior deeper view popping up in weird places like the personification of Wisdom. Yet after the return idolatry just wasn’t the threat it seemed to constantly be before. The replacement idolatry with hellenism seems much more minor even if it did transform the conception of God for many to be less anthropomorphic and more the God of the Philosophers.

Is the same thing happening today? Probably. Culturally I think in many ways even as the west has learned to be more ethical it’s affected the church. We’re far less racist than we were in the 19th century for instance. I suspect our family units in terms of day to day respect and charity are far better than the 19th century due to an appreciation of women as full equal actors. Those and numerous similar things we’ve learned as our culture has learned are positive for the church.

Yet at the same time I do worry we are losing things as well. Even things that are still within the church seem to be recognized by fewer and fewer. It’s hard to say how we are being transformed and how much we jettison along the way we may one day wish we hadn’t.

Brent, I hope to see a revision of the scriptures that pay much more attention to the final edits of the JST. There’s lots of passages that end up changed. Given how the Church has embraced the Joseph Smith Papers project I’d hope that it becomes a reality sooner rather than later.

John, that’s amazingly insightful and something I’d never considered. The more I think about it the more I think you’re right.

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By: Cam Nielsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542021 Thu, 06 Jul 2017 04:41:54 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542021 That is fascinating Brent. Quite different but equally amazing.

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By: Brent Metcalfe https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542020 Thu, 06 Jul 2017 03:33:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542020 JS made some interesting emendations to Moses 7:28 during the final edits of OT2 that renders the narrative far more metaphorical. Initially, JS’s scribe merely copied the text as it appears in OT1:

OT2 (Moses 7:28–29), original transcription

“And it came to pass, that the God of Heaven looked upon the residue of the people & wept. And Enoch bore record of it saying how is it the heavens weep & shed forth her tears as the rain upon the Mountains And Enoch said unto the heavens how is it that thou canst weep seeing Thou art holy & from all eternity to all eternity,”

JS then dictated several revisions to his scribe:

OT2 (Moses 7:28–29), emended transcription

“And it came to pass, that Enock looked upon the residue of the people & wept. And he beheld and lo! the heavens wept also & shed forth their tears as the rain upon the Mountains And Enoch said unto the heavens how is it that thou canst weep seeing Thou art holy & from all eternity to all eternity,”

(The terminal “k” in “Enock” is either a malformed miniscule *k* or a malformed miniscule *h*.)

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By: John Lundwall https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-book-of-the-weeping-god/#comment-542019 Thu, 06 Jul 2017 01:00:43 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=36888#comment-542019 Old Testament Israelite religion also believed in a benevolent and even merciful god. One of the chief differences between the Old and New Testaments is the writers of the former lived in a theocracy where the priests of the cult were embedded in the political structures of the Kingdom, and as it turns out with modern prejudices, whatever the State is doing the Church gets all the blame. The wrathful god of the Old Testament is often a reflection of the political needs and strategies of the political order.

Whenever politics gets involved with religion God turns wrathful. This is human nature, as human political will is projected with whatever authority works for the culture. A religious culture will use God as justification for all sorts of political and violent aims. In a secular culture science is also used in the same sort of way (I was just reading an article a few months back of climate apologists demanding that people who do not agree with their models should be fined and/or arrested; whether you agree with the models or not, here is an example of “secular science” turning into the “wrathful god.”)

New Testament writers are divorced from political power and the God of the New Testament is divorced from political concerns; “deliver unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s.” New Testament theology is rooted in individual concerns first and foremost; individual theology prioritizes individual faith and grace, and this is reflected in the ideas of deity.

So I think there are some straight forward explanations for differences between the Testaments.

As for the comparison with the Book of Mormon, I think you will discover some of the same tensions afoot. Early on we get individualized theology because Nephi and Lehi are fleeing the political order and do not consider themselves political agents. How this works out with the state, culture, and religion that develops from their community is not fully understood because after the writings of Jacob and Enos we get almost no reliable commentary. It all picks back up after the major political reforms of King Benjamin and Mosiah, who appear to have their own form of the separation of Church and State with elected and appointed judges that appear to be separated from the administering priests. The cross-over is ever present, however, as the Chief-Judge is also the High Priest, but even here there are complications. Alma the Elder reforms the Church, and the book of Alma is the only book that mentions priesthood. In Alma the priesthood is developed as the order of the Church and not of the State. Again, the details are iffy.

One must also consider that much of the early Old Testament is rooted in oral culture. Oral culture is communal and oral religion is political. Communal and political religion will have a god that marches ahead of the communal and political army. Whereas the Book of Mormon BEGINS in full literacy already steeped in the reflection of individualized theological concerns. Oral religion is communal. Literate religion is individual. Communal religion is political. Individual religion is personal. As a result, Oral gods are communal (polytheistic), political (they are wed to every social aspect of the tribe or civilizations), and often tribal (they will fight for the clan, and this is where they seem to be so militaristic). Literate gods tend to be monotheistic, personal, introspective, and relational, because literacy develops this dynamic in the literate psyche.

I am sure there were plenty of oral peoples amongst the Nephites and Lamanites, it is just interesting however that unlike the Bible, the Book of Mormon begins within a literate tradition and with literate prejudices. And it shows.

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