Comments on: The (In)Consistencies of Church Employment https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542239 Mon, 24 Jul 2017 20:07:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542239 BevP I’m sensing a bit of a non-sequitor. Who said speaking with gays was “consorting with deviltry” here? I suspect most writing here on both sides are deeply sympathetic to people here, but recognize the difficulty of reconciling Mormon doctrine. Again we’d discussed that here before. There are no easy solutions and I’m certainly glad I’m not in charge of things. But I think everyone agrees people need to always be engaged with using love. Often listening without condemnation even when you disagree is the only way to bring people to Christ. Ultimately whatever happens is up to God and I’m more than willing to follow whatever he wants.

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By: Cam Nielsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542238 Mon, 24 Jul 2017 18:40:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542238 Really? Well, might be doable, haha. I only commute 3 days a week. Not that I would tattle on you BYU-I style, your content here is excellent, even if I marvel at the patience and interest you have in philosophy for someone who is an entrepreneur.

Like many other pioneers, the Nielsens have had many generations to spread across the whole state. Happy Pioneer Day!

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By: BevP https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542237 Mon, 24 Jul 2017 18:17:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542237 I spent 5 years at BYU in the early to mid-60s, got two psychology degrees [couldn’t find a husband during the first, but after the second my parents said GET A JOB]. I must have missed most of what was going on! I did manage to run acoss a community of gay guys on campus at the time, hence no husband in the first degree, so I thank the gay community for the master’s. It never crossed my mind that I was consorting with deviltry, and a friend at the time said I should write a book called “Grim Fairy Tales and Bed Time Stories; Memories of a Gay Marriage Counselor”. All I saw was genuinely nice but occasionally troubled people who needed someone to talk to sometimes and I could listen without condemnation. Sometimes talk wasn’t necessary, just friendship without buts. Probably just as well I didn’t go to any of my professors for counsel then. 6 grown kids and a belated British PhD later, I was just thinking about seeing if there might be room for me to contribute to the Pathway program. You’ve just talked me out of it.

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542234 Mon, 24 Jul 2017 15:27:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542234 LOL. Small world then. Lots of houses in my neighborhood for sale. South east Provo is even a worse commute to SLC though.

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By: Cam Nielsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542230 Mon, 24 Jul 2017 02:36:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542230 @Clark, I actually do teach Elder’s Quorum in my ward in NE Orem, but I wouldn’t at all be surprised to know there are a few other people with my name in Utah Valley. I’d probably love to be in your ward. Anyone selling their house? Just moved back from San Diego and I can’t bring myself to live in Salt Lake Valley where I work, mostly due to air quality. ;)

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By: Chadwick https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542228 Mon, 24 Jul 2017 00:36:46 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542228 I agree with Steve S and Rockwell. Took the words I couldn’t articulate right out of my keyboard.

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By: Left Field https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542212 Sun, 23 Jul 2017 00:54:32 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542212 I teach at a Catholic university. The expectations of faculty are fairly liberal. They don’t care who you sleep with as long as it’s consensual and not a student. The university does have the right to terminate tenured faculty with cause, for certain serious offenses, such as a crime involving moral turpitude. Faculty have the explicit right to agree or disagree with the principles and morality of the Catholic faith as long as they are treated with “proper respect and dignity.” (Also, nuns and priests on the faculty are required to maintain their vows.)

The contracts of non-tenured (but tenure-track) faculty run year-to-year and may be renewed only by agreement of both parties. For non-tenured faculty, the university is not obligated to state a reason why a contract is not renewed. I recently finished a term as department chair. Faculty whose contracts are not renewed always want to know the reason. For obvious reasons, the university did not want me to ever state a reason. The institution simply exercised its contractual prerogative to not renew. If we give a reason, that just gives the person a reason to try to challenge.

For adjunct faculty, the situation is different. Adjuncts are hired for a single semester. The contract automatically terminates at the end of the semester. Both parties can agree to another contract for a later semester, but there is no provision for continuing or renewing the original contract. There is no such thing as “firing” an adjunct, unless it happens in the middle of the semester during the contract period.

Robertson was not fired. She was allowed to finish the academic term, and both parties fulfilled the contract. BYUI simply chose not to make use of her services for the coming semester. The university should not have had to state any reason for this, and I suspect that they did not give any formal reason. The story that she was “fired” because of her Facebook post or because of her views of homosexuality, comes from Robertson, and the story does not comport with her status as an adjunct.

As a faculty member at a Catholic institution, I am free to eat meat on Good Friday, use or promote birth control, publicly disagree with the Pope, or profess any range of belief or non-belief in God. But the university does have the reasonable expectation that I give Catholic faith and practice the appropriate respect and dignity. A number of my colleagues are quite atheistic and secular. But they have no difficulty meeting the respect and dignity standard.

Aside from Robertson’s Facebook post, the salty comments attributed to her certainly cross to the wrong side of the respect and dignity line. If she were at my university making corresponding comments about Catholicism, she would be subject to dismissal, even if she had tenure. And we’re really laid back when it comes to the religious beliefs and practices of faculty.

I would not argue that BYUI handled this well. BYU in general has a history of ironically making bad publicity for itself in the process of “maintaining its image.” But I blame most of the brouhaha on Robertson. Robertson and BYUI were not a good fit to begin with. Contrary to her claims, she was not fired. No matter how competent and well-behaved, adjuncts have no expectation of continuing employment. The facebook post and views on homosexuality likely had little or nothing to do with her current unemployment, and she attacked the sponsoring institution in ways that would not be tolerated at other private universities.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542205 Sat, 22 Jul 2017 03:32:56 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542205 BTW – are you the Cam Nielsen who teaches priesthood in my ward? Just curious — Thanks for contributing, Slightly intimidating people from my ward are reading. (grin)

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By: Cam Nielsen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542204 Fri, 21 Jul 2017 20:58:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542204 She started off fairly neutral. Using the phrase ‘official announcement and disputing that the natural man can’t be sinful probably put it over the top.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542203 Fri, 21 Jul 2017 17:19:33 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542203 Yeah. You must have read that right as I first commented. I thought I changed it from Jesus to Judas quick enough. LOL.

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By: The Other Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542201 Fri, 21 Jul 2017 03:03:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542201 Judas, you mean, right? In any case, I get the point.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542200 Fri, 21 Jul 2017 01:57:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542200 Other Clark, I’m loath to point to how and why leaders are appointed who do evil things. After all Christ appointed Judas and Joseph appointed Bennett. I think we’re fallible beings and I’m skeptical all these cases are due to a systematic problem so much as missing a prompting. If there is a systematic problem I’m all for fixing it. But I doubt there is one. Rather I just think listening to the spirit can be hard and it’s easy to go with our gut rather than the spirit. I think we have to think through how to mitigate the effects of the few wolves that come in sheep’s clothing. My guess is that there are fewer now than in the past but that today such wolves are far more likely to be caught.

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By: The Other Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542199 Fri, 21 Jul 2017 01:09:04 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542199 At the risk of threadjack (or maybe fodder for another post) I would welcome a discussion of the societal forces that drive Mormon middle management to select leaders based on “appropriate behavior” rather than spirituality. This is the type of behavior that leads a stake president in Mapleton to call a child molester as bishop.

Why can’t we go back to the scriptural injunction to “Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.” ?

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By: John Lundwall https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542198 Fri, 21 Jul 2017 00:42:35 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542198 Old Man. Thanks. I gave myself a sticker, so I’m good.

Clark. You wrote: “Part of the problem is that often the most egregious actors are either sociopaths or borderline sociopaths. Often they have extremely good skills at both deception but to act in the ways people expect (contrite, “full of remorse,” etc.). It’s sad, but they can often pull the wool over people’s eyes.”

This is spot on exact. It is not just the HCO, but many bishops and stake presidents attempting to negotiate through sociopathic evil have also caused much harm. Mormon culture, like other cultures, does not do evil well, or sociopathic behavior well. Middle managing through this kind of behavior, using Mormon tropes, has many problems and can be ruinous to people’s lives.

You also wrote: “I think part of the problem is the church is still coming out of a certain type of “appropriate behavior.” These appropriate behaviors, including dress, grooming and speech is seen as appropriateness often not really tied to gospel principles. That’s kind of beset aspects of what you call “middle management.” It’s really hard to break corporate cycles in that sense. (Any corporate culture not just ours).”

Yep. What did Chesterton say, “If you do not live the big laws, you do not get freedom, and you do not even get anarchy, you get the small laws.”

It appears you’ve been around the block once or twice.

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By: Old Man https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/07/the-inconsistencies-of-church-employment/#comment-542197 Thu, 20 Jul 2017 23:23:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37002#comment-542197 “a wasteland of intelligence pressed underneath a giant pinhead of politicized intellectualism.”

Clark, you need to start awarding a comment of the day award on your posts. I nominate John.

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