It wouldn’t actually cost you very much, in my book, to back off from defending a few points. Practically everything has a few weak points, or points that aren’t yet fully understood, so admitting a few weak points doesn’t actually put you out of the running. Whatever the alternatives to Mormonism may be, they all have their own weak points of some kind. Moreover, conceding a few weak points boosts your credibility on your other points.

Conversely, if someone puts up just one bad-looking argument, it undermines any progress they may have made elsewhere. That one bad argument raises doubts about the apologist’s competence—or about their character. Catching someone earnestly advancing a bad argument is like catching them trying to pass a bad check.

The most self-damaging apologetics is the kind that fails to realize how badly it comes across to its audience. It is one thing to disagree on a point. If someone else accepts an argument that seems appalling to me, then as long as they can still recognize that their argument may look much worse to me, I can still consider that they’re a reasonable and decent person whose life has simply given them a viewpoint that is different from mine. If someone seriously expects me to be impressed by an appalling argument, though, then that’s quite another thing. The person is evidently imagining that their appalling viewpoint is shared by everyone. So they are living in a whole different world from the one I recognize as real, and I can’t take anything they say at face value.

For me, and I think for most modern non-Mormons, the example of polygamy as an indefensible weak spot is a good one. Every Mormon defense of polygamy that I have heard has indeed done nothing but dig the hole deeper.

There are non-LDS scholars that find the church’s truth claims compelling? Most of them get baptized at that point though. Most “scholars” don’t look at the church’s claims at all though, because its much easier to assume falsehood than to actually test God the way Moroni directs. Its understandable enough; faith is a difficult muscle to exercise. It really shouldn’t be difficult to understand in principle though.

Alma 32 directs the planting of the seed (which could be construed as an act of blind belief if you wish, though often is not), but then it specifically directs the experimenter to watch for fruit. In other words, does it work? A physicist does the same thing. “I am testing X theory. I will act as if it is true and see if it works.”

Most Mormons have found that applying the Mormon principles in theory give the expected results should the church’s claims be true. You only get to the “its all groupthink and socialization” explanations if you deliberately and immediately reject out of hand the idea that God is real.

Not sure what you mean by “merits” or “truth claims.” Lots of truth claims of course are unobjectionable. The ones that require revelation to confirm usually entail non-LDS becoming LDS so there’s kind of an inherent problem with your criteria.

“I have every reason to believe that my point would be readily accepted by most non-LDS intellectuals.”

There are reasons? You sure?

“So the burden of proof is on you to show that socialization in a religion has no impact on scholarship.”

Why would I have to prove that? I don’t even believe that. Rather my claim is that it’s not determinative.

“Plus, even if I wrote an entire book showing this, knowing you, you would still find a way to weasel out of accepting this through some extreme mental contortionism.”

Requesting evidence is mental contortionism?

“So many of your responses are tangents and non-sequiturs that don’t even address the main point.”

Requesting evidence for a claim is a tangent or non-sequitor? You’re not helping yourself here.

“The only people who accept your belief in Mormonism as rational are other believing Mormons. That says nothing.”

Not at all. I suspect the problem is that you assume that to believe something rationally entails it being true. I’m not sure of course – but if that is what you believe it’d explain a lot of your comments.

Since I don’t think rationality entails truth I can believe that people can rationally believe Hinduism, Buddhism, Catholicism, Islam and atheism. It doesn’t follow that I think them true. You’re hung up on the rationality component because I suspect you don’t really understand epistemologically what that entails. There are lots of of false beliefs people can believe rationally. Indeed the history of discarded scientific theories is filled with such.

Maybe we should have a discussion over what rationality entails? (Note this is not a tangent nor a non-sequitor but a logical premise to your arguments that we appear to disagree over)

“We have ample evidence from the thousands and thousands who have been raised in believing families and married in the temple of just how difficult it is to leave Mormonism”

The fact it is difficult for some does not entail it is difficult for all. You’re making an illegitimate generalization. I can but assure you that if I felt it was false I’d leave and not think twice about it. I recognize you don’t believe that of course – no doubt appealing to such things as groupthink or delusion for which you have no evidence.

“For employees of BYU, they stand to lose their jobs on top of damaging their family relationships and friendship networks for leaving.”

But again that says nothing about those who do believe and don’t teach at BYU. Further the argument that those who teach at BYU are deceptive because there are potential costs is just illegitimate. It’s funny to me that you can’t even understand why that is an illegitimate argument.

“Lastly feeling the spirit = intuitive feeling.”

I can but say it’s not in my experience. Feeling is a rather minor superficial aspect to the spirit in my experience. Obviously it’s not in yours. Presumably why you aren’t a member. But of course that then raises the question of whether you’re representing the experience correctly.

“Say it is otherwise and by default you have to believe every other religion on the planet to be true.”

Again, you’re really not helping yourself here. I’ll be kind and just ask if you have a sound argument for that? (My guess is that you’re again confusing rationality with truth)

So is your answer “no” ? It comes across as if you are trying to avoid answering my question directly. Is that the case?

Lastly feeling the spirit = intuitive feeling. Say it is otherwise and by default you have to believe every other religion on the planet to be true. Because virtually every religion is full of members who claim its truthfulness on strong feelings often described as spiritual. You’re just acting childish now, Clark. A sign that you’ve lost the debate. Go back to high school, clown.

That’s because you’re in a state of denial. Evidence for this is in the fact that no non-LDS intellectuals believe Mormon truth claims on their merits, in spite of the LDS church’s gigantic missionary and promotional efforts. I have every reason to believe that my point would be readily accepted by most non-LDS intellectuals. So the burden of proof is on you to show that socialization in a religion has no impact on scholarship. Plus, even if I wrote an entire book showing this, knowing you, you would still find a way to weasel out of accepting this through some extreme mental contortionism. That has been our whole exchange on this post. So many of your responses are tangents and non-sequiturs that don’t even address the main point. I have to repeat to keep you on track. The only people who accept your belief in Mormonism as rational are other believing Mormons. That says nothing. Make the case to non-Mormon intellectuals/academics and try to gain traction there. That is the only way you’ll make your case.

Repeating it doesn’t make it so. Please provide an argument for this. I recognize it’s what you believe. I suspect you have no compelling reason for the belief. I sure hope this isn’t just a feeling. If it’s not I’m sure you can provide objective evidence explaining why I believe what I believe isn’t what I believe it is.

“The fact that they would face significant social backlash if they were to express open disagreement with central tenets further undercuts their credibility.”

Again outside of Utah that not only isn’t true but typically the opposite is true. Where I grew up it was far more costly to be Mormon than not be Mormon. Even in Utah there have been ample times when the costs for remaining were far higher than leaving. I suspect that’s true for many if not most people.

“The fact of the matter is that pretty much all informed educated believers in Mormonism will tell you that their beliefs is rooted in what can only be described as an intuitive feeling.”

I can’t say I know anyone who believes due to an “intuitive feeling.” You sure group think and confirmation bias aren’t forcing you to say that?

Ok, you’re right, you had previously mentioned some of these other listed items. Instead of getting into nuances of why I felt what I did in my previous comment, rather I’m interested just as an intellectual exercise – if you can conceive of any genuine and positive reason why a person might believe in God / a religion?

(for simplicity sake, let’s keep it to Christianity or any other major world religions that believe in higher beings or powers, or even an afterlife)

I’m not, read my exchange in more depth. Groupthink is just one factor among many. Delusion, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, apophenia, etc. are other factors as well. The fact of the matter is that pretty much all informed educated believers in Mormonism will tell you that their beliefs is rooted in what can only be described as an intuitive feeling. In other words, they didn’t arrive at their belief because of what would be accepted as valid evidence in academic and intellectual communities in spite of their occasional insistence that their beliefs are rooted in that type of evidence.

On critics and groupthink, the critics have no central authority declaring unquestionable doctrines that are enforced through a complex array of organizational maneuvers. Many of them are former believers and are arriving at their ideas more or less independently (they don’t have parents and friends creating incentives and pressuring them into professing said ideas) and sometimes at social cost. There criticisms are based on strong evidence. They are not socialized into their skepticism of the LDS church. Contrast this with believers (educated informed ones as well) whose beliefs in the central tenets of Mormonism are based on claimed spiritual feelings that it is true. While there may be a bandwagon effect among critics, the groupthink element is lacking due to the near lack of social pressure in enforcing those criticisms. Social pressure is a huge factor in getting Mormons to profess belief. On evidence, we have the patterns in human behavior that provide overwhelming evidence that tradition plays a very strong role in shaping individuals’ beliefs. Being raised in a Mormon environment and having social expectations placed on you to profess belief (even to the extent of oath-taking ceremonies witnessed by friends and family) has forced you to think a great deal about Mormonism (and not HInduism, for example) and work your mind extra hard to come with reasoning to justify those beliefs. I can’t speak for you entirely, but I would think it is reasonable to believe that you have contemplated leaving Mormonism at some point (along with other informed educated believers) but that social factors have made you think twice about that. Physicists were mostly not socialized by parents and family into professing particular beliefs about physics. We have no reason to attribute their ideas to that factor. They also aren’t claiming their ideas based on revelation. Huge difference. You’re making an absurd false equivalence.

PS, I’m Anonymous as well, I forgot to add my name and email on that comment.

On key things though physicists agree – on new phenomena and hypothesis of course there’s a lot of disagreement. That’s not the point though. After all apologists disagree with each other a lot to. The question is whether their agreement entails groupthink. That’s the whole argument I’m making — that the appeal to groupthink is weakly argued.

Steve S, the question is how individuals arrive at their conclusions. To assert that everyone is simply accepting Joseph Smith’s revelations just seems false. Most people try to find out themselves. To argue that the main reason Mormon intellectuals believe is merely their upbringing demands an argument. Instead it just seems a convenient way to cut the issue off. Now if you have evidence that my beliefs and the beliefs of apologists are merely due to being raised in a Mormon environment I’m all ears. I suspect you don’t.

In which case I suspect it’s merely a case of groupthink among critics.

It comes across as if you have a crisis of belief (or disbelief rather) and identity. You don’t seem comfortable in your disbelief of mormonism, to the point it looks like you take somebody’s belief as a personal affront or challenge. I sense a lot of anxiety seeping through in your words. I don’t think someone who is settled in themselves would feel the need to box others’ motives so narrowly. You seem intellectually capable of seeing more possibilities – so why attribute all believing motives to one incriminating simplistic idea?

When I see that in someone, it tells me more often than not the person is seeking self-justification of some sort.