Comments on: Theorizing the Restoration in the Sixteenth Century https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Eric James Stone https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542690 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 00:03:26 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542690 To quote a comment I made on a post with a similar theme back in 2005 (http://www.timesandseasons.org/harchive/2005/03/the-problems-of-the-great-apostacy/):

In thinking about this, I’ve come to the general conclusion that the Restoration happened as soon as it could. It happened in what was almost certainly the most religiously free nation on Earth, and Joseph Smith still ended up being martyred. The Saints were persecuted and forced to flee to Utah.

If the Restoration had been attempted sooner, the restored church might have been crushed before it developed. (Or, possibly worse, coopted by a government. Here’s a bit of alternate history for you: A young Spanish explorer in Mesoamerica in the early 1500s finds and translates the golden plates and begins to restore the gospel, including the doctrine of plural marriage. Although nobody expected it, the new religion runs afoul of the Spanish Inquisition. But when Henry VIII of England is looking for a way to have a male heir, he decides Los Mormones have the answer. Mormonism becomes the established religion of England.)

If the Restoration had happened a generation or two later, the restoring prophet would probably have lived to a ripe old age, and Church headquarters would probably still be somewhere back east. And the growth curve of the Church would be behind where it is.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542668 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 03:38:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542668 Stephen, I was less thinking of doctrinal or ritual parallels between Mormonism (especially Nauvoo Mormonism) and these more esoteric traditions. Although heaven knows you’re right that many of the things Mormons think needed restored were found in those traditions. Further most of them can be traced back to the ancient world via that conduit with at least a reasonable case to be made they were part of very, very early Christianity and the Judaism of the era.

But more what I was thinking of were figures who felt a restoration was needed, but who weren’t in the Protestant tradition as much. As you’ve noted in your own writing theurgical platonism (very broadly considered) tended to ascribe a lot of ideas including religious ones to Hermes Trismegistus. Even though fairly early on in the modern period these beliefs were shown to be false, the tradition of restoring these very old traditions from Egypt became a prominent theme in the esoteric tradition. It’s that sense of restoration I was thinking of.

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By: Glenn Thigpen https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542666 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 00:39:53 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542666 The Preacher said “there is no new thing under the sun.” What we have is that which is new to us. There were quite a few converts to the church who had expressed that they were convinced that God’s authority was no longer on the earth. The “melting pot” of cultures and beliefs that the U.S. became almost surely helped such ideas take root, but even then it was not easy sledding. However I wonder how Joseph would have fared in England or another of the “Old Countries.”

Glenn

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By: Ben S https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542665 Sun, 17 Sep 2017 14:18:56 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542665 Excellent post. Thank you

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By: Stephen Fleming https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542664 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 16:52:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542664 Very good points about Protestants working to shut out these aspects of the Radical Reformation. These things do stick around though (as you know). But notions of restoration isn’t Mormonism’s only tenet and as Clark points out, esoteric thinkers like Swedenborg have other similarities. And I’ll just bring up Jane Lead, since she is the closest to Mormonism (on restoration and most other points) and she clearly influenced Swedenborg. So these things could mix.

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By: Russell Arben Fox https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542662 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 13:00:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542662 Love this post, Jonathan, and your brief exchange here with Ardis, which sketches out the range of ways in which a better, fuller understanding of Reformation and post-Reformation history can shape our thinking about Mormonism’s contribution to the broad Christian tradition. Your discoveries in various 500-year-old documents–a vision here, a trenchant comment there–are always intriguing. Keep it up.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542660 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 03:37:34 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542660 I think that in practice while we make distinctions between traditions in practice the lines were extremely blurry at best. Take the rediscovery of Platonism particular theurgical or hermetical types. Those deeply influenced how orthodox religious people often thought of things. Likewise someone like Swedenborg was the son of a Lutheran bishop and deeply influenced by Lutheranism even if his movement was considered non-Christian due to the rejection of the Trinity. However Swedenborg is influential on many figures both those outside of acceptable Christianity but often inside such as various Anglican and Methodist preachers. Much of the so-called spiritual but not religious movement in early America (influencing arguably Joseph’s father) would have been influenced by him. Contemporaries of Joseph Smith such as Warrant Felt Evans (originally a Methodist) end up being influenced both by Swedenborg but also the Transcendentalists.

Drawing clear lines between Protestantism and esotericism is frequently quite hard. Admittedly there was also opposition (such as say Lutheran antagonism to Masonry)

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By: Jonathan Green https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542659 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 00:53:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542659 Ardis, that’s a good point. I tend to be a maximalist when it comes to how unique Joseph Smith was, at the same time that I think his historical context is important. I guess I see context and tradition as primarily helping to explain the kinds of questions he was asking, rather than the answers he received.

Matt, that was my reaction to reading Beyer as well, but based on the small corner of the primary sources from that era that I work with, I think he’s right. I’m planning a post about how Beyer’s book might be relevant to Mormon Studies, but I need to wait until my review for an academic journal comes out, so it might be a few months yet.

Clark, good points, but one thing I want to discuss more in that future book review is that esoteric traditions may not be the best explanation if there are more mundane options available. They’re still interesting parallel developments, though.

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By: Matt Calhoun https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542657 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 22:30:51 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542657 “As Jürgen Beyer argues, “Protestantism” was a late invention reflecting reconciliation between Lutheranism and Calvinism centuries after the Reformation. ”

Interesting. I didn’t know that.

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By: Clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542655 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 20:47:10 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542655 It’s worth noting that in the 16th & 17th century these questions in Europe weren’t only being asked relative to Protestantism but also in the more esoteric tradition as various ancient texts and traditions were dispersed thanks to the Renaissance. We had the art of memory, the rediscovery of plato and neoplatonism, gnostic and hermetic traditions, and more. Those traditions and ideas entered into movements like Masonry around this time.

Outside of what I’d call the esoteric and Protestant traditions we then had interesting purported prophecy or related movements. Swedenborg in the 17th century is one example who was influential on early America and offered some parallels to Mormonism.

In discussing the very idea of apostasy historically, those two broad movements really need to be considered.

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By: Ardis E. Parshall https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/09/theorizing-the-restoration-in-the-sixteenth-century/#comment-542653 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 18:50:40 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=37218#comment-542653 I’ve been thinking for a while about what recognitions like this might mean to Latter-day Saints. On the one hand, your find takes away a little of the perceived uniqueness of Mormonism and might discomfit some people (much like the recognition that Joseph Smith was hardly the first to present a dietary health code disillusioned some). On the other hand, you position Joseph Smith as a normal, thoughtful young man joining an ages old discussion — which might, for some, enhance his standing as a prophet. He, after all, is the one who got the ultimate answer.

I enjoy your contributions, Jonathan. You extend the history of Mormon-like thought to centuries and places beyond anything in a typical Mormon history study.

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