Yesterday, I had the kids at work. They stayed in the Child Center and I had lunch with them at lunchtime. When I went downstairs to pick them up, Sullivan was playing chess with a little girl and in full trash-talk mode. He was trying to impress her.
We got onto the elevator with a bunch of people, including the girl and her mother. Sullivan continued his trash talking. It was kind of cute at first, but then he switched topics, crowing: “You’re ten, so you have to pay tithing, and I don’t!” (At some point, years ago, someone told Sullivan that he would have to start paying tithing after he got baptized. He has stuck to this interpretation.) The girl looked mystified. Sullivan’s brother Kace joined in, and both boys started loudly pointing out that she had to pay tithing of ten percent, or else she would be sinning. The elevator was full of attorneys and other co-workers. I tried to shush the kids, but they paid me the usual heed.
Thankfully, the girl and her mother eventually got out of the elevator.
As Sullivan gets older, he’s become more aggressive in telling other people when they’re sinning. He’s been known to call people on the carpet for drinking coffee or for smoking. He reminds other people that they have to pay tithing. This comes out at school, at work, at the park. It’s particularly ironic and often embarrassing, since there are so few other Mormons that he interacts with outside of church.
Of course, these are the lessons that he’s supposed to be picking up in church, and I’m proud that he remembers his lessons. But does he have to be such a pest about it? How can we teach our kids to understand, for example, that they need to obey the Word of Wisdom, without inducing them to bother classmates, teachers, or friends about it? I’d like them to learn the gospel, but they’re also going to have to figure out how to be tolerant of the fact that not everyone is Mormon.
This is a hard thing for adult members of the church, too, I think. This past Sunday’s elder’s quorum lesson devolved into a discussion about caffeine with the subtext of some elder’s calling others sinners for drinking Mountain Dew. (I thought that since the WoW lesson I taught 4 or 5 months ago concentrated on the food pyramid, and didn’t seem to go over that well, I’d give something else a try. Boy was that a can of worms I wasn’t expecting!)
Sometimes people don’t get that whole mote and beam thing. I really think that’s one of the more fundamental points of the gospel that people forget about… First principles and ordinances comes to mind. People don’t realize how bad it feels to be told that they are sinning.
Maybe an FHE discussion about covenants and commandments and how people who aren’t members of the church don’t have the same responsibilities that those who are baptized do? Maybe a discussion about how even if people do something wrong, Jesus said it’s not our place as regular human beings to judge others?
It’s hard for me to say, since I don’t have kids between the ages of 6-10…
If you’re successful, please share your secrets.
Kaimi,
How old are Sullivan and Kace?
Did he win the chess game?!?
Kaimi, you are clearly missing what is important here. It is not about teaching your children, senstivity, knowing the commandments, or the like. This is all about chess. If he had a cool knight combination mate, then he has every right to indulge in a little trash talk.
I would tell them immediately and firmly that their comments are inappropriate and why. In my experience, kids are pretty good at understanding and accepting an appropriate level of chastisement.
No, no, no. The moral of this story is don’t put your kids in day care–even at your workplace, even for a couple of hours. Look what happens! :-)
Seriously, though, we’ve tried to stress with our daughter (now almost 5) that we can choose what we do, and so can everybody else. We might not like their choices, and they might not like ours, but we don’t make fun of people if they choose differently from us.
When my kids have done this (and they do occasionally) I pull them quietly aside right afterwards (but not in front of other people) and tell them nicely that what they said was rude because . . . , and that they should try not to say such things to others.
By the way- this reminds me of a very funny episode that happened in the sandbox at Michigan family housing a few years back. One of the neighbor (LDS) girls was on a major pioneer kick. For weeks she dressed in pioneer clothes and referred to EVERYONE as Brother [first name] and Sister [first name]. She called her Dad “Brother Joseph.” Everyone thought it was cute.
But everyone raised an eyebrow when, one day clad in her pioneer attire, she stood firmly in the middle of the sandbox and declared for all the moms and dads in that family housing square to hear: “LET’S BUILD A TEMPLE TO OUR LORD!!” and then started calling for her Dad “BROTHER JOSEPH! BROTHER JOSEPH! WE MUST BUILD A TEMPLE RIGHT HERE!”
It was pretty funny, but I wonder what all of our neighbors were thinking- probably that we had indocrinated her into some weird cult! :)
My mother tells me that when John and I were little boys, we used to always make our friends play “nephites and lamanites” with us, and our friends never knew what the heck nephites and lamanites were. Go figure! I wonder what their parents thought when they returned home talking about all the “nephites and lamanites” in America.
Out of the mouths of babes indeed.
This is a fascinating subject – my sister when she was little yelled at another man in a car next to ours at an intersection and yelled “don’t you know its not nice to smoke?” Personally, I don’t think any reprimand is needed – smoking is one of those things that I really don’t mind if I offend someone because their nasty smoke is affecting me too! It’s a huge subject here in NE, as for the 4th time around a bill is up for smoke free restaurants (quite the adjustment for me moving from Portland a year ago) I hope it goes this time around. Anyway, back to teaching children – maybe pointing out to him how that little girl felt when he badgered her – or better yet, point out that he’s missing out because he doesn’t pay tithing. I’m not a parent yet so I don’t have much here but am fascinated to see what others advice is to you about this topic!
When I was 4 I told my neighbor, the head of bottling/distribution for Pepsi for the entire east coast, that drinking Pepsi was a sin.
Trash talking is trashy. Period. Whether the subject is a basketball game, the American League Championship Series (which, as I recall, was won by the Red Sox last fall), a chess game or the neighbor’s sinfulness, it’s still trash.
Part of the problem is when people think that their children’s obnoxious behavior is “cute”. It only encourages the little devils to continue to be obnoxious.
It’s time you sat the kid down with a copy of Miss Manner’s Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, make him read it several hours a day and commit it to memory and practice.
If that doesn’t work, I’d suggest giving him the option of choosing which switch you’ll use on his backside, and then use it. It’s better that you sting his little butt than some big guy whack him for being obnoxious.
Agreed Mark. And we try to teach our children this, and they occasionally make mistakes.
I concur about trash-talking. I dislike it in children, athletes, rappers (why can’t rappers instead praise the skills of worthy “sucka MCs”?), and try to avoid it myself in litigation.
Though I would pardon Kaimi’s son if he re-used the ultimate example of chess trash-talking: upon losing in tournament play to someone that was regarded as a weaker player, Aron Nimzowitsch stood on top of the table and screamed “Why must I lose to this idiot?!”
Nate: it’s been your move for about a month.
gst: I am losing badly and looking at the positions just depresses me further. Thanks for not trash talking, however, despite the fact that you have definitely earned the right…
Kaimi:
I’d recommend spending some quality time, on a regular basis, with your children volunteering at a local soup kitchen or some similar venue where one typically finds all sorts of people with varying virtues and vices. We have done so with our two children (6 and 8) and I think its gone a long way to helping our children understand that living the gospel is a positive, humbling experience and more a blessing to those who live by its precepts than a curse to those who do not. It also helps that my spouse is the only member in her family and that my children are accustomed to seeing people they love engaging in inappropriate behavior. They still offer encouragement (“Papa, you really need to stop smoking.”) without adding any sort of damnable judgement to it.
Nate,
He was behind, but not by all that much. He had a rook, both bishops, a knight and some assorted pawns and had castled, and had a pawn two spaces from the end row (and protected by a bishop).
She had her queen, a rook, and a bishop and knight, but was in a pretty cramped position. Also, her pawns were all pretty far back.
They were both playing like kids — missing obvious moves, being all about offense, and so forth.
I would have given him about a 35-40% chance of winning.
Mark, Jordan, Greg,
I’ll disagree. Perhaps there’s some wiggle room for differing definitions — I won’t put up with nasty trash-talking. But a competitive, excited, usually overconfident announcement of “I’m going to beat you” — well, that doesn’t seem so problematic to me. Perhaps because I’m around it a lot — all of my kids are pretty competitive, and not afraid to say it. (Indigo is the brashest of all, and she’s only two!)
We work on sportsmanship, and being nice to others. They’re learning.
Oh, also as to the game —
1. She had three years advantage on him. I thought he was acquitting himself pretty well.
2. She aparently initially set up her king and queen on the wrong spaces (switched them). (An easy enough mistake for a ten-year-old to make). This made for a confusing board.
Mark, Jordan, Greg,
I’ll disagree. Perhaps there’s some wiggle room for differing definitions – I won’t put up with nasty trash-talking. But a competitive, excited, usually overconfident announcement of “I’m going to beat you” – well, that doesn’t seem so problematic to me. Perhaps because I’m around it a lot – all of my kids are pretty competitive, and not afraid to say it.
I can understand that. It has always made me uncomfortable when others do this, though, which is probably the reason I have never enjoyed sporting events.
I honed the ability to eschew trash-talking in its most natural environment: playing Unreal Tournament online. The trash-talking was neverending. I resolved to effusively compliment whomever killed me. I spent as much time thinking up flowery compliments as I did trying to kill those guys (presumably all 12 year-olds). I’m quite proud of this one: “You, sir, are an artist who works in the medium of lead, and I am honored to be your patron.”
The Story of a Bragging Duck by Juliet Kepes might be a good addition to the family library.
I don’t think the best sportsmen rub it in the faces of their opponents. (We’ve come a long way, baby, in the behavior of professional athletes in the past 40 years, and the way has been mostly downward.)
Look at someone like David Robinson, or Tim Duncan, or John Stockton. I don’t see a lot of bragging or rubbing success in others’ faces. They just do (or did) their jobs extraordinarily well, and let their actions do the talking.
Nate: I haven’t looked at the positions since my last moves, but my recollection was that you have strong winning chances in one of the games. The other you have probably lost, and I don’t say that to trash-talk.
1. From the time they are little you talk a lot about “You are in charge of YOU, not so and so……” “Its not your job to tell so and so what to do…., etc.” when they start asserting their will on others.
2. You establish that different families have different rules. “In our family we don’t drink coffee.” “In our family we go to church on Sunday” “In our family kids go to bed at 8:00.” “In our family we don’t tell potty jokes.” Kids are going to run into friends and extended family with different rules. It does not have to be confusing. You just explain that there are different rules and kids deal with it pretty well.
3. You point out that other people have different beliefs….preferable point out people they know that aren’t active or aren’t LDS. Tell them that some people don’t go to our church. Or go to a different church. Or don’t know there is a God. Or don’t believe that the scriptures are important. Help them realize that there are good people who don’t understand or know about the ggospel.
4. Emphasize caring about other people’s feelings and emphasize good manners. At first, kids don’t really understand exactly why things hurt people’s feelings. Or they don’t understand why something is bad manners. But if pointed out enough, they will pick up on it and start to understand that your family considers good manners important. When a kid speaks with their mouth full, and you say “Don’t speak with your mouth full, it is not polite.” They will eventually understand that talking with their mouth full isn’t what Mom and Dad want them to do. If you never point it out, they may never understand that it is considered rude.
Kids are going to pick up on things from their parents. Either you tell them its important, or they will blindly and ignorantly keeps behaving in ways that they don’t know are impolite.
It is HARD though, how do you tell them not to ask questions about new situations…..because the questions might be rude in the presence of others (like asking about a person with a disability, or who looks different in some way, etc.).
Telling them, when they are somehow acting or saying something inappropriate, “You are not being polite/behaving well. Please be quiet for a while and when we get home/to the car we are going to talk about this situation.”
One way to handle a situation is to tell them that you’ll talk about it later when you get home. My friend was with her children at the grocery store checkout when her oldest asked, “Mom, what does rape mean?” Everyone kind of froze. She simply told her that she would explain it to her later.
I am not experienced with older children. But for my age 7 and age 5 kids, when I overhear them talking with their friends and I”m not pleased with how the conversation is going, I step in. “Honey, Mason just asked you a question. It is polite to answer someone if they ask you something.”
Or sometimes, simply a “That’s enough!” will stop my children from saying something more than once that they know is inappropriate…..works for whining, bossiness, silliness, fighting, the “s” word (stupid), etc.
JKS – lots of good ideas there to store away for the future for me. I have to admit though I’ve noticed that sometimes discipline requires physical acts? (ie picking up the child and removing them from said situation). When I’ve been in public situations and watched other parents with their children being out of control – I’ve always been impressed when a parent tries the kind way numerous times then gently grabs their arm or their face to make sure they’re listening, or if a younger child picking them up and walking them outside for a minute or too. I’ve also seen when a parent just keeps trying to “talk them down” and it’s highly ineffective, or the flip side where parents are just way too harsh on a child. I just wonder whether any of this is affective? and what methods really do work when the child won’t listen to you?
Interesting experience, Kaimi. In a small ward in the mission field, I have the impression the perceptions are more the other way around with the children: “Dad, why can’ t we …?” and “Mom, why do we have to … ?” Mormon living is so at odds with the whole environment, and seemingly so demanding in comparison, that our children very quickly see that they are the exception. It puts a different strain on parents. But if the kids survive the challenge, they will be strong members and also respectful of the non-Mormon environment.
Re comment #21 – lots of extremely good suggestions.
However – I have heard youngsters and young people use suggestion 2 – “in our family we don’t……” and it comes across fine when talking to non-members, but I have heard it used to other members and young people, e.g. “in our family we don’t drink caffeinated drinks……” and it does sound rather patronising and used judgementally – as though they are a superior race – or is it just me being super-sensitive?
Good points JKS.
I had an experience several years ago while at work. Sometimes adults can be just as dogmatic as kids.
Two other co-workers, who were both Catholic, and I were talking.
One of the women said to me, “You are Mormon right?”
Me: “Yeah”
“I thought that Mormon’s didn’t eat sugar. I have seen you eat plenty of ice cream.”
Me (laughing): “Believe you me Mormon’s eat plenty of sugar.”
First woman: “I use to have a Mormon neighbor who wouldn’t allow her family to eat sugar. She told us that sugar was not allowed by your Church.”
Me: “Your neighbor was incorrect. That is her personal belief that she is getting confused with the Word of Wisdom that teaches us to be generally healthy and avoid, hot drinks, tobacco, and liquor.”
First woman looks confused. The seconded woman who had been quiet during this part of the conversation turns to the first woman and says. “There are varying degrees of Catholics. There are probably varying degrees of Mormons.”
Me: “I am not a varying degree.”
I would have preferred that the zealot Mormon neighbor had used the explanation that “Our family does not eat sugar.” Rather than blaming their food choices on the Church. There are so many members who drink caffeinated soda pop that it confuses non-members when we say that our Church does not allow us to drink Coke, Pepsi etc…
When using the phrase “in our family we…..” I mean using it to explain the world to your children. The sooner they REALIZE that different families have different rules, the less strange it seems to them. The sooner they realize that people have different beliefs and we don’t say things to hurt their feelings, the sooner they’ll respect that. The sooner they realize that they are in charge of their own actions, their own choices, but they shouldn’t worry about other people’s choices (unless it involves danger or involves them) the better.
I explained divorce this past year to my first grader. My kids have a new neighbor friend whose parents are divorced and the mom has a live-in, plus another family we know was getting a divorce. I also tried to explain that it probably makes their friends sad, so maybe they should only talk about it if he wants to talka bout it. Also, I had to reassure her that we would never get divorced.
During following conversations later, I realized that she really truly believed me that we wouldn’t get divorced. As devestated as she was about the whole concept for her friends and at the possibility of it ever happening to her, she has complete faith in us that it wouldn’t happen to our family because I told her it wouldn’t.
Emily,
I also see many parents who say things to their kids and their kids simply ignore them. I suppose both the parent and child is used to that dynamic. I try to never tell my child to do something (or not to do something) unless I’m willing to back it up. It can be vary inconvenient. Right at that moment it may be more trouble to take care of the discipline issue rather than ignore it, but down the road when you say no, and they stop because they know you mean business, it is SO worth it.
Re. Comment 23:
My dad had some Sunday rules: 1) No TV; 2) No playing outside; 3) No friends over. And we stuck to them religiously (whether I wanted to or not).
When we children complained and asked why other neighborhood children got to play outside and we didn’t, Mom and Dad explained: “it’s because we’re Mormons” (we lived in South Dakota at the time).
Then we moved to southern Utah. Again, we asked why we had to stay inside while all the other neighborhood kids got to play outside. Mom responded: “it’s because we’re Rogers.”
Sometimes, I think it’s easier to be religious outside of Utah.
I guess I would be in the crowd that would find this behavior to be very cute. I know as a child when I correct my grandpa for using the word ain’t that my parents informed me that we are not supposed to correct Elders. I guess in your case this advice would have to extend to peers as well. I sure hope you can convey it in a way to help them feel really good that they have really caught hold of the message. I remember teaching my Sunbeam class years ago about the word of wisdom and their sweet looks of horror when I showed them the “forbidden substances.” From their responses, I think that their families had done a very good job of letting them know which substances were on the forbidden list.
Years ago, I remember seeing some children who were siblings in the media. They were literally telling the passers by who I seem to recall were their classmates that they they needed to repent. They were like a regular street corner Preacher and actual used the word repent to their “heathen” classmates. I am so glad that we are not asked to be that bold. I would hate to have the role of a Samuel the Lamanite or Isiah or any Prophet who had to call a nation to repentance. I guess you call it fear of man.
That is one thing your children seem to be lacking at this point. I think that is great!