Ward Shopping

We’re in the market for a new house. (If you want a home in North Austin that looks as if a pack of large dogs instead of a pack of small boys had been living in it for the past five years, please email me.)

Looking for houses online is fun, I think. I like setting my criteria (at least 2.5 baths–no more living in mortal terror that the visiting teachers will see [and smell] a bathroom used by three little boys!). I find it impossible not to think about ward boundaries during this process.

Non-church related considerations have narrowed our house hunting to a three-ward area. In that area there is a clear hierarchy in my mind: one ward I absolutely do not want to be in, one that would be OK, and a third that I would prefer to the second.

Sometimes we pride ourselves on attending a church with geographically assigned congregations. But when you are in the position to assign yourself to a geographic area, you are choosing your own ward. And I feel vaguely guilty about that. But I still don’t want to be in the ward that is behind door number one.

75 comments for “Ward Shopping

  1. Dang, Idaho, I wish you hadn’t asked that, although I suppose I opened myself up for it. I’m a little hesitant to do that since I know people in real life who read T & S. Would it be enough for me to say that my reasons are entirely selfish and solely concerned with what *I* want to get out of my Church experience?

  2. People unabashedly ward shop where I live all the time. Very often someone will introduce him/herself and say that while they are visiting ward X, their spouse is going to ward Y and they are going to compare notes and factor that into their decision about housing choice. I may be in the minority here, but I think that ward shopping is not necessarily something to feel guilty about. I think that in ward shopping, as in so many other things, much depends upon the reasons for the choice.

  3. My memory is telling me that Kaimi wrote a post on this very topic, way back in the early months of T&S. (Where are you Kaimi?!?) He approached the topic by way of addressing his desire to move out of a dysfunctional ward with a large number of problems that had really trained him, but which also clearly needed active and intelligent members like themselves. I can’t remember what conclusion (if any) he came to.

    We’ve never been in a position to make a choice like you’re describing, Julie. Well, I suppose we were when we bought our house in November, but in that case our thinking was pretty straightforward: the ward we were already in possessed boundaries that included most of what we were looking for (near enough to work for me to ride my bike, school districts that seemed pretty decent, etc.), and there was nothing we disliked about the ward, so why not stay? Though admittedly, I have pretty low expectations for actual church meetings and such.

  4. #2–well, I had an idea that was why you were not more forthcoming with details. No sweat. On a personal note: due to a boundary change in the stake, my family ended up in the very ward I had always said I was glad I wasn’t in (because the average age was VERY high). It’s been four years now, and I absolutely love my ward. I don’t know if it’s demographics, leadership, or culture in the ward you are trying to avoid, but (with the possible exception of the third) all of those can change in time.

  5. Ward shopping is common in Madison. Some wards have a tradition of having strong youth programs, while others have stronger primaries. Some wards are populated by university people, while others have more industry folks. I don’t see any reason to feel guilty about looking for a good fit with your family. As long as you keep this in mind.

    Ward shopping is facilitated by the fact that Madison has relatively few wards. So shopping for a ward is also about shopping for a high school, a commute, hospitable neighborhoods, etc. I assume that ward shopping also occurs in areas more densely populated with Mormons, though the search costs in Salt Lake or Provo — at least for an outsider — seem much, much higher.

  6. What if you wanted to avoid a particular ward because you knew that you might be asked to sustain a leader that you felt that you couldn’t sustain? Is that a valid concern? Just a hypo about a friend of mine, of course.

  7. I became aware of the reverse of this a few years ago. Our ward was to be combined with, and disappear into, a neighboring ward. A young married couple was concerned about losing “our” ward (she had grown up in it). After the combination, they learned that the new ward was wonderful, and not only because all the people from the old ward were in the new one. Then they changed wards, by 100 miles, for a company transfer.

    It now seems odd to me that we want a ward’s people to be just as we require but we give no thought to how we improve/deteriorate it for others by our coming or going.

  8. In the past we’ve moved every two years or so (although we are trying to grow up and settle down now that our kids are old enough to be affected by frequent moves, since they weren’t required moves, we just felt like moving…) and always visit the ward first if we are considering the house – to see if the people seem friendly, to see if there are plenty of children, to see if we like the general feel of it. I’m not the strongest member right now – I consider myself sort of a member/investigator trying to get back up to 100%. Going to church is hard enough for us in the first place, and we see no reason to deliberately make things harder than they have to be for us, or for our children.

    We fell in love with a house once, had drawn up an offer, and went to the ward and discovered that there were only 11 children in primary, so we picked a different house. Maybe stronger members would have seen that as an opportunity to serve by helping the primary to grow, etc., etc., but we aren’t those people right now.

  9. “we just felt like moving”

    That’s a very hard sentiment for me to understand right now. Having our house on the market is destroying my willl to live.

    And it’s only been two days. :)

  10. Economics have always, always, always controlled where I live, and where my parents lived. Believe it or not, I’ve never heard the term “ward shopping” before this, or even conceived of the idea. Never give up the hope of learning something new!

  11. If you have minor children at home, ward-shopping can be just as important as shopping for the right neighborhood or school district for their sake. As I mentioned in another recent comment., I didn’t think it mattered where you lived, or that you should even seek inspiration about it, until I was prompted several times about where I should live.

    Until I heard parents complain about primary and youth programs, I didn’t understand the importance of those programs. “The church is true wherever you go” is a true statement, but it doesn’t address all the issues for families with children. Some families can flounder if the church’s scaffolding isn’t in place for their children. (That’s not to say that the church should be the primary support of a couple raising children, but it’s an important factor.)

    I think the over-arching principle is the ponder/decide/pray paradigm. Study it out, make the best decision you can, and pray for a confirmation. As long as you got a positive confirmation (or absence of a negative), I don’t think you’re out of line.

    I asked one brother who was about to move due to a job transfer if he looked for a good neighborhood/school district first, or did ward-shopping, and he jokingly replied that he went “bishop shopping.”

  12. I agree that ward selection is important and appropriate. In our geographic system, the only chance or “by the book” way we have to choose which congregation to attend is by moving. (This sometimes, but not always works, in getting released from a calling.)

    But, as others have noted, our control over ward selection is quite limited, because boundaries change and because ward populations change.

    We have lived in the same ward (and same house and neighborhood) for 18-1/2 years. In that period, virtually all of our neighbors have moved and been replaced by new neighbors, and I would say 70%-80% of the ward has also turned over–that is, only about 20-30% of the ward members were here when we arrived.

    While our neighbors have been replaced by new families with younger children, this has not been the case as long term LDS ward families have moved. Our LDS ward, like other wards in urban and semi-urban areas, suffers from “Mormon flight.”

    Perhaps because LDS families tend to have more children, and–because of tithing, the encouragement of mothers’ staying home, and demands on time–probably relatively less disposible income to purchase a home, LDS families seem to be on the vanguard of pioneering distant exurbs, where larger homes can be purchased for fewer dollars per square foot than closer in.

    Thus, we have the odd result that while the school districts in which we live (we have separate elementary and high school districts) have grown, the number of LDS youth in the same area has dramatically declined.

    And then things begin to feed on themselves. A family that does have the disposible income to purchase an adequate home in our stake notices that a typical primary has 20-25 children, and 5 or 6 young men and 1 or 2 young women (or vice versa). And the family decides that an additional 30 minute commute is worth the price of having more LDS peers for their children. (I do not criticize this; this was a factor we considered 18 years ago in not living closer to downtown.)

    Thus, wards and stakes are combined or closed towards the center of the urban area, while (according to rumor) 5 or 6 wards meet in a building on the outskirts–with multiple nurseries (and some stakes do not even “own” any buildings, but meet in buildings of other stakes).

    When we moved here, our ward, with a total of 50 or 60 young men and young women, had the smallest youth program in the stake. Now, 18 years later, with 7 young men and 6 young women, we are about average in size.

    I do not know what to make of all this. I am sure the Church, with its sizeable social science staff, is very aware of these LDS macrotrends in metropolitan areas. I also think there is much more sensitivity today to considering how to adapt Church programs–designed, perhaps, with burgeoning suburban wards in mind–to areas where the LDS population is declining and aging.

    Interestingly, in some ways I think our younger children, with fewer LDS ward peers, have had a better adolescent Church experience than our older children did, with more LDS ward peers, because they have much more attention from the bishopric and from youth leaders and other adults in the ward. I think the smaller youth program experience has also been better because of the absence (or near absence) of cliques.

  13. I am in the process of finding a home and one of the first places I go when I get a new listing is go to the “Worship with us” link on mormon.org: http://www.mormon.org/question/worship/1,8578,797-1,00.html . By plugging in an address, it tells you what ward the home is in and gives you a link to the ward website (Hint to ward clerks: most wards changed times because of the new year, if you are one of them please update your ward schedules on the website.)

    I wonder if ward leaders realize that the first information someone might see about the ward is the ward web page on lds.org. Some of them are chock full of stuff, others quite minimalistic. I imagine that this has to do with how web obsessed the ward clerk is, and probably isn’t a reflection on the value of the ward.

    At some point I always lament the fact that you can’t get past the ward homepage unless you are in the ward. It would be great if you could see the ward calendar for the next year for example.

    Since ward websites aren’t much help, here is a bad idea: how about a GreatSchools.net type site for wards? ;-)

  14. DavidH: In Indianapolis, the “Mormon flight” from the urban inner city has been reversed. The suburban wards are still growing and splitting faster. But there has been enough growth in the inner city that the church has built two chapels in the past 4.5 years in inner-city Indianapolis. These two are the first chapels built within this county in over 40 years. After one stake center was built in the early 1960’s (near the outer fringes of the county), all other chapels in the last 40 years have been built in the suburbs outside of the county that contains Indianapolis.

  15. Julie, simple answer, move to San Antonio and be in my ward.

    Seriously, we did the same thing when we bought our house, with our set up being along the lines of “we willl live anywhere except in ward X.” because my in-laws were in Ward X. But then the Lord said move to Ward X, we found a house that was perfect for 20k less than anything else comparable on the market, and now my in-laws live less than five minutes away. So that’s what ward shopping gets you. :)

  16. Oh, man. I love our ward, but it has suffered from “Mormon flight.” In fact, most of it was before we got here, and the ward did a dance of joy when we as a family with kids moved in. I pray constantly for more families to move in, because it really is a great ward, but our primary is super small, and our youth program almost nonexistent (with 2 YM and 0 YW)

    I can see why families choose other wards, even ones in our stake, with more kids. My problem is, if everyone does that, then it won’t get better! We don’t need a TON of people, just a few more families with kids, and we’re good! Move to my ward!

    Also, we have apartments in our ward, which brings in a lot of really great couples with and without babies, but they stay anywhere from 6 months to 3 years, and then decry that they can’t afford a house in the ward, and move out to boony land into a ward with 5 nurseries. “Mormon flight” is very real here in UT, but #16 gives me hope that maybe it will turn around. (Hopefully by the time my kids are teenagers? Please?) Move here!

    Oh, and selling your house is horrendously bad, and I feel for you. People feel like they can just ‘drop by’ and inspect the inner reaches of your cabinets and tell you your decor is tacky. It definitely drains your life force.

  17. see [and smell] a bathroom used by three little boys!

    Might I recommend the Kohler one-piece toilet? Makes a big, big difference when you have boys who tend to go on the toilet rathen than in it. Pricey, but worth it in the long run. If you are buying a new home, you could have those written into the contract, or if it is an existing home, then it is easier to put one of those into the boy\’s bathroom before you move in.

  18. I looked at a move to San Antonio last year. I liked the wards and the homes were OK, but the area of the city where the company was located had horrible schools (unless I wanted to drive 30 min to work). I ended up declining the offer and stayed put.

  19. “Ward Shopping” is a term I previously associated with single people who were always looking for the next best ward.

    When my wife and I were looking for our current home, we really didn’t do much investigating into the ward; we just showed-up on our first Sunday and loved our new ward.

    Good luck with your house search, Julie. Oh, (minor threadjack) a friend of mine in Austin said that the closer you live to Donn’s BBQ, the better the house will be. Once you eat the beef brisket and Donn’s, you, too, will gain a testimony of the only true beef brisket in Austin! I bear testimony to the tastiness of Donn’s BBQ!!

  20. When we moved to California my husband ward shopped and chose one he thought was the best for us. He rented us an apartment, then found out our apt. was in a different ward. A different ward that was perfect for us.

  21. I think you cannot CHOOSE a ward on based on factors like the leadership of the ward, but you can ELIMINATE wards based on the leadership. Good wards may turn bad, but bad wards may always stay bad (unless you’re into the long-haul of changing it).

    I believe that the Lord guides us to where he wants us, but if left to my own devices, I tend to look for wards where I can grow and make a contribution, not just enjoy the easy living.

  22. Economics have always, always, always controlled where I live, and where my parents lived. Believe it or not, I’ve never heard the term “ward shopping” before this, or even conceived of the idea. Never give up the hope of learning something new!

    Ward shopping is economics. I suspect that it is finances that have always controlled where you live. But you can still maximize your utility via nonfinancial means, like picking a compatible ward.

  23. We\’ve just moved to a tiny branch on Long Island. It is bilingual and rather disorganized, not at all what we would have chosen had we a choice. The little branch has been so happy to receive our little family. In a congregation this small, our ability and willingness to serve are sorely needed. I like to think of Eugene England\’s essay, \”Why the Church is as True as the Gospel\”. We go to church not only for our own edification, but to love and serve others, people if not for our callings and ward/branch boundaries, we would likely never interact with.
    Wherever you end up moving, you can do good and learn. Good luck.

  24. I’m not sure that the Worship With Us link sends you to the actual ward that address is in, or the closest meetinghouse. I’ll have to try a coupld test cases and see.

  25. This is a hard thread for me to read; I consider ward shopping almost antithetical to the gospel. This is largely based on an assumptions about why people ward shop–but at least some of those assumptions have been confirmed in the comments (and numerous times in personal conversation). I confess to feeling angry as I have read some of the comments–their smuggness and unworried selfishness an affront to my needy ward. Around me I see large, prosperous wards growing ever stronger, populated by families with deep roots in the gospel who coo at our “diversity” before retreating to their comfortable buildings. An endless stream of transplants from the West visit us for a week and are next encountered at stake conference–choosing a longer commute over a ward that will make uncomfortable demands on their time and talents. I’ve observed the phenomenon long enough to see there is real wisdom in having the churches finances centrally administered.

  26. Hey all,

    Good discussion.

    I think there is nothing wrong with ward shopping but I think you need to seek inspiration in your search. I could be that you need to pick a ward that does not seem to stack up so well.

    I have also noticed that the older suburban wards close to large cities are having Mormon flight like SLC. The exurbs are where most of the young couples move to these days.

    Julie, You should look at DFW its cheaper in terms of housing then Austin and the economy is much larger

  27. I must say that I find Ward Shopping troubling the same way I find basing your move on what kind of school your child will be in. I do understand the impulse, but somehow the system and social dimension that makes this thinking typical bothers me very much.

    I’ve actually liked this aspect of New York City’s public schools — within a district your child can fairly easily go to any school, and once you hit high school, every highschool in the city is open to you. The schools actually promote themselves to parents a little as a result.

    I’m not saying that this system solves all problems — in fact it brings other problems. And the city has made moving schools more difficult in recent years. But as a result, you don’t see much moving within New York City to get a particular school.

    I’m also not suggesting that the Church should change its system to allow members to attend wherever they wish.

    I am just bothered that we end up with people moving based on the percieved value of a ward or branch (or stake). It reminds me too much of things like the redlining and white flight that I grew up with.

  28. We moved from a small ward to a ward on the verge of splitting. While our family of four kids was half the primary in our old ward, the day we moved in we were part of the family. They cried when we left.

    The new, bigger ward has been a tranisition. We were one of 12 families that moved in within 3 months, nobody knew we were new to the ward, because everybody else was new. The primary has over 80 kids as well. But there are weeks that I can go and, if I don’t speak up, I feel no-one would even know if I showed up because it is too big and croweded. Give me a small ward anyday with minimal growth anyday. At least you are known.

  29. Our stake includes two wards that are now apparently “newly wed or almost dead” and so they have separate Sacrament Meetings but they combine the Primary and Youth, which is an interesting way to do it.

    My ward was eliminated a couple years ago because we had so few youth. They cut us in half and gave us to two neighboring wards. Our new ward had many youth but we filled out their Junior Primary so now we are a pretty balanced ward but not too big.
    I’d take a small ward over a big ward anyday as well.

  30. Julie, I face almost the exact same ward-shopping trilemma right now. We are not moving to escape our current ward. In fact, we love our current ward. But, we are moving to a new area in a neighboring stake and have a choice of three different wards. I feel guilty thinking about it in terms of personal need and want, but I have real concerns about my families’ growth in these wards. Maybe it doesn’t matter, but something deep tells me it does, at least to some degree.

    We have prayed about the move in general and feel that we are headed to the right spot in the vineyard for us at this time. But choosing the exact place to set up our tent is not as clear. I angst about the ward choice, probably mostly because I have a choice and one is not being foisted on me, but each day I seem to change my mind about which ward would be best for our family.

    There is a real irony about going to the master of the vineyard and telling him that one spot of his vineyard is not desirable and that I don’t want to make it desirable. Kind of makes me feel like I have missed the whole point.

  31. We will miss you from our ward Julie. BTW, you all should know that Julie is famous in our ward (though she may not know it) for her superior teaching abilities. I’ve never heard her give a lesson since she was released before I moved in but there was still a buzz from people who were greatly impacted by her lessons. Good luck in your new ward and no, its not a sin to ward shop. Just don’t shop too seriously since you’ll probably move out of that ward in a few years anyway (gotta love Austin!)

  32. Kent (#29),

    I must say that I find Ward Shopping troubling the same way I find basing your move on what kind of school your child will be in.

    You must not have children. Finding an acceptable school system is perhaps the highest priority of most parents who have the option of choosing where they live. As most children are outer-directed, as opposed to inner-directed, their peers and teachers have a huge influence on them.

    I also think you’re imputing motives to ward-shoppers that may not be accurate. My understanding is that ward-shoppers also look for wards that will have a good influence on their children.

    I think the point of contributing to a ward to make it better is understood by all. However, I don’t think the Lord expects anyone to intentionally sacrifice their children’s spiritual and educational development for the sake of the parents’ opportunity to make a contribution to other ward members.

    Sure, there are many remote branches that cover a large geographic area, such that there is no option for ward shopping, and a young couple’s children may end up being the only ones in that branch’s primary. But in larger cities, where the family has the choice of up to 6 wards within a 30 minute commute, it might be improper for a couple with small children to intentionally move to a ward that had no primary.

    You didn’t say it, but your last paragraph gives the impression that what troubles you is that a ward-shopper’s motives and criteria are based on race or socio-economic status. If that’s so, then perhaps you’ve made false assumptions. There are other things about a ward that would be legitimately important to young parents deciding where to live. I don’t think anyone in this thread is encouraging ward-shopping based on race or social/economic status.

    Matthew (#27), unless you’re a mind-reader, or using the spiritual gift of discernment, you really have no way of knowing the decision-making process those people used to choose another ward over yours. There are a lot more factors than just the adult ward members, or the existence of a good primary program. Stable and safe neighborhoods, and school systems play a large part. Maybe those people are bypassing your ward because there is no suitable neighborhood for their children, maybe the school district of the more distant ward is much better, maybe there just wasn’t a suitable house for sale in a good neighborhood in your ward.

    Many urban stakes are now sending married couple “empty nesters” from suburban wards to inner-city wards as service missionaries. They don’t move, they just change the ward they attend for a year or two. If your ward could use helping hands from strong members in neighboring wards, perhaps your ward’s PEC should pitch the idea to your stake president. It’s been tried successfully in other stakes.

  33. i am not familiar with “ward shopping” and i am really confused. is there such thing as a BAD ward? it’s supposed to be the same church, right? same lessons, same sacrament, ect?

    and what if you move into a ward that isn’t as spectacular as your last, or as you hope it to be. let’s say that the Bishop is a creep,or the RS president is a flake, is there nothing to be done? If there is real problems in the leadership, is there no fixing it?

    i’m totally serious folks! i am really having a hard time with the concept of choosing the “type” of folks you worship with. I just always assumed that you pick a place to live based whatever reasons and you go to such and such ward and you participate in whatever the LORD calls you to do.

  34. Bookslinger,

    This is a topic close to my heart. I admit to being touchy on the subject and I may wrongly judge the motivations of some people. On the other hand, I know I have not misjudged the motivations of others. Your suggestion in your second paragraph is a good one.

    I strongly disagree with John in Austin who categorically states that ward shopping is not a sin. I believe it can be a sin as can any choice that leads one to put selfish interests ahead of their fellow men. Such selfishness is of the same type that leads older couples to stay near children and grandchildren rather than serve missions and of the same type that leads people to turn down callings because they are inconvenient. On the one hand, such sins of ommission don’t loom large in our mind’s eye–on the other hand, they are a violation of the second commandment.

    One of the good things about the church is that it teaches me to love others and then gives me the opportunity to do so. We usually don’t find it particularly difficult to love people who are more or less like ouselves. I don’t think I’m overstating the case if I say the more I have in common with a person, the easier I find it to love that person. People who are not like myself–who don’t have the same background, who don’t have the same interests, who make more or less money than myself, who don’t share my political beliefs, who have nothing in common with me other than a common belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ and the restoration of the gospel–present more of a challenge. Choosing one ward over another because the people are better suited to one’s tastes involves making a value judgment on the fitness of one’s neighbor. In the world we do this all the time and I think there are reasonable reasons for doing so. At church I think we can afford more idealism. A perfect world would involve making housing choices completely independent of ward boundaries as that would reflect a willingness to love one’s neighbor regardless of whether he/she is part of one’s affinity group.

  35. mathew

    your comment is a of what i am thinking/feeling about this subject. you said it better than i, thanks.

  36. Bookslinger (#36):

    Somehow, my wife and I have successfully gotten the oldest of our three children through the best high school in New York City (Stuyvesant), if not in the US, and into BYU preparing for an LDS mission. Our daughters are following his footsteps in middle school and nursery school. So I do think I know something about parent’s motivations in this respect.

    Like most parents, my wife and I (more my wife, to be honest) have put a lot of effort into getting our children into the best schools we can. Fortunately, we haven’t had to move to do it, because New York City’s school system gives us more options than school systems in the suburbs.

    What troubles me is not that parents act to get their children in the best schools or the best ward. I understand and felt those feelings and I can’t claim that I wouldn’t do the same, in a similar situation.

    My intent in my post was merely to say that I find it troubling. I compared it to redlining and white flight on purpose — they are very similar. In both redlinging and white flight, individuals feel trapped into going along. They cite property values, safety, cultural and value differences, among other reasons, for their actions.

    I’m NOT saying that ward shopping, or even shopping for schools is “immoral”. I’m only saying that it is troubling. It is troubling beause the results can destroy neighborhoods, schools and, yes, even wards — that much is clear from other comments more than my own. Some of this is probably natural, after all neighborhoods, schools and even wards decline and fail.

    I’m just saying that I’m troubled that people get put in the situation where they feel the need to shop for wards, schools and neighborhoods. I do believe we need the freedom to move should we need, but I’m also troubled because of the reasons people have for switching.

    Most of the “ward shopping” I’ve seen is for poor reasons — there are “better looking” girls or guys in the other ward, or we feel more comfortable with the people in that ward, because they are more like us.

    The problem isn’t that we have the freedom to “shop” between neighborhods, schools or wards. The problem is the reasons that we use in making our choices.

    I find that very troubling indeed, and I wish there was a way, short of limiting freedom, to convince people to consider better why they are making their choices.

  37. I agree that the ward shopping that I am doing is troubling on a few levels–hence the post.

    Most of you have guessed the reasons involved: ward #3 is the most stable, has the most families with grade school or high school kids, and is the least transitory. I completely agree that if the question were “which ward needs us most?” we’d be headed for #1. But is that the right question? Since virtually every other family in a position to choose has already chosen ward #2 or #3 (which is why ward #1 doesn’t have many stable, older families in the first place!), why is it that the Smiths should be the ones to fall on their swords alone in ward #1? (It may be our status as homeschoolers that makes this an issue in the first place: otherwise I think we’d have to choose #2 or #3 because of the poor schools in ward #1.)

    One thing that occurred to me (page those hypothetical sociologists in SLC!) is that most wards are roughly blob-shaped, meaning that in a city with a dozen wards, the urban core is concentrated in just 1-2 wards. But if you divided the city up like a pie, then each suburban ward would extend a little tip into the urban core and, I think, have the potential to better serve that core since all of its complexity and needs would be spread among many wards. Just a thought.

    But this being Texas, the criteria that outranks all others in house hunting is the location and quality of the neighborhood swimming pool. So ward boundaries may end up being a moot point. :)

  38. Jon in Austin,

    Thanks for your kind words. And we may not be leaving the ward–perhaps the WBW is #1, #2, or #3 ;)

  39. While I agree that ward shopping can be “troubling,” I think that you are lumping too many things together.
    Plenty of people, including Bishops need to move and intentionally decide to look for a house only within the ward boundaries. They are “ward shopping” because they are basing their house search on ward boundaries.
    I don’t see a problem with this. If you want to move, but want to avoid changing schools or changing wards, go right ahead!
    What I find “troubling” is when someone DOES decide to move somewhere and doesn’t look at the school or the ward before buying/signing a lease. How far is it to the chapel? Isn’t church attendence on of the most important things? Would you buy a house before knowing where your work is? Shouldn’t a school and church be just as important?
    Sometimes people have so little choice in housing. You can afford what you can afford. Sometimes the choices are limitless and it then becomes difficult to prioritize various criteria.
    I firmly believe you should attend the ward you are assigned to. I have bought two houses since first moving to the Seattle area 8 years ago. Both times we looked at houses in areas we could afford. We looked at places outside of the ward. We were perfectly willing to move out of the ward if that is where things took us. We ended up buying inside the ward (although the ward boundaries changed somewhere in there). For us, I knew any ward would be just fine. I did check out what ward certain cities were in, and did not like the long commute to the ward building for one area. I just knew if I had a choice I’d rather not drive through that kind of traffic.

  40. Hmm.

    I think I lump \”ward shopping\” in the same category with the Utah people who move into our small South/Eastern ward briefly but can\’t take it and inevitably run back to Utah. Somehow both sets of people seem to need church culture even more than they need the gospel.

    Our family has lived in a variety of wards, from big California wards to a tiny branch in England to our current small ward in the outer reaches of our stake. What I\’ve learned through it all is that our family is the center of the gospel. Sometimes our children have had friends at church, but more often they have had friends who share their standards but are faithful members of other churches. Sometimes we\’ve had strong leaders and sometimes we\’ve had problematic leaders and programs. We\’ve learned to focus our energies on our individual testimonies regardless of what saint or sinner might occupy any particular calling. Things like family scripture study and family home evening are not optional with us because no matter what happens at church, we are accountable to see that our children learn the gospel.

    Visiting teaching and home teaching have become to me the most important callings in the church. Certain programs and leaders may prove disappointing. But that personal contact with other members feels like the Lord\’s own errand and blesses me and my family more than anything else.

    One more thing. In very small wards and branches, a strong family will be asked to bear more and heavier burdens. Sometimes you can do it and sometimes you can\’t. I\’ve learned to seek inspiration and exercise my own agency in those cases and say no when it just doesn\’t feel right. Sustaining leaders doesn\’t exempt me or my husband from the responsibility to make wise decisions for us and our children.

    So far, it seems to be working for us. We really do love our fellow ward members most of the time and they seem to like us most of the time as well. We are able to magnify our callings and support others in theirs. Mostly, we are finding that the gospel can work inside each of us no matter what the ward outside of us is like.

    LB

  41. I don’t mean to thread jack, but speaking of ward shopping, what about ward squatting? (Ignoring all the formalities of acutally shopping and buying a house inside a ward boundry, and just attending your favorite ward.) Should bishops be giving squatters living outside ward boundries callings? I’ve seen it in every ward I’ve lived in, and wonder how both sides pull it off.

    Thanks,
    JAT

  42. LB,

    I enjoyed your comment. One quibble–I would guess that most people who return to Utah do so not for the culture but to be closer to family. That is a desire I understand and find admirable.

  43. Matthew wrote:

    Choosing one ward over another because the people are better suited to one’s tastes involves making a value judgment on the fitness of one’s neighbor.

    That’s not my definition of ward shopping. Again, I believe you’re imputing motives not in evidence. Most of the comments are about whether the wards one is considering are going to be sufficiently supportive of one’s primary-aged or YM/YW-aged children.

    For example, parents are usually in a position to understand what size groups their children best respond in. Parents may wish to avoid a ward where their children will be the only YM/YW, or a ward where there are too many YM/YW, such that their children may not get the individual attention they may need.

    Mfranti wrote:

    the concept of choosing the “type” of folks you worship with.

    I think you’re jumping to the same incorrect conclusions as Matthew. My read on this thread is that the ‘”type” of folks’ is not being considered by ward-shoppers. There is no talk of making value-judgements upon ward members.

    Matthew and mfranti: also, I don’t think anyone in the thread is trying to over-ride the Lord’s direction in their ward choices. The Lord’s pattern that he has given us is 1) ponder, 2) decide, 3) pray for confirmation. Ward-shopping comes under the heading of pondering and deciding. Ward considerations may or may not be something that parents feel inspired to included in their ponder/decide process.

    If I’m going to assume anything about ward-shoppers, it’s that they’re also going to do step #3, and pray for a confirmation of their decision.

    There were two times in my life when I chose where to live by specifically _ignoring_ ward factors. The first time, I found the place closest to work that was available in my price range, and moved there without praying about it. Boy, was that a big mistake. I should have prayed about it. The second time, I chose a place based on economic factors, and no “church factors”, and ignored promptings, and also made a big mistake.

    A third bad move was when I moved, but intentionally stayed in that ward, thinking I “owed it to the ward”, and boom, another bad housing choice.

    Kent wrote:

    I’m just saying that I’m troubled that people get put in the situation where they feel the need to shop for wards, schools and neighborhoods.

    Shopping for schools and neighborhoods, when parents have the option to do so, is merely being a good parent. There’s absolutely nothing unrighteous about seeking a home in an area such that the neighborhood and the schools will be of benefit to your children.

    Julie: I like your idea of dividing up the inner city like a pie among suburban wards. But for some reason, stake presidencies don’t seem to do that. In our stake, the last reorganization of boundaries was to make ward boundaries align more-or-less on the boundaries of school districts, so that the youth who went to church together would also be going to school together and to seminary together.

    However, a part-implementation of your idea is that our stake presidency is calling empty-nester couples to be service missionaries in the inner-city wards.

  44. “It now seems odd to me that we want a ward’s people to be just as we require but we give no thought to how we improve/deteriorate it for others by our coming or going.”

    Oh no, never! I’m ALWAYS a very appreciated and wanted asset in ANY ward. That was an interesting comment. And it’s funny, when someone comes to your ward saying “we’re thinking of living here” everyone there starts praying for that family to come, or, perhaps, otherwise… ;)

    You can always go to a foreign language ward–how’s your Spanish? :)

  45. Julie, the pie division of inner cities is what happened in most urban areas for a generation. Here’s a hypothetical case of how I understand it happened: a city circa 1940 has one ward, centered in the downtown area and serving the surrounding area. By the time 1970 or so rolls around, the urban area is ‘ghettoized’ and the predominantly white LDS families have taken flight. The boundaries are redrawn and missionary work is being done mainly in the suburbs, and those wards grow fast. They include a pie shaped segment of the inner city. 1990 rolls around and missionaries start teaching black families. Small inner city branches start popping up to create a sense of community for those living in the city and to facilitate church attendance. The stake then redraws ward boundaries to make more blobs instead of pie wedges. Many of these urban wards struggle with welfare issues, transience, and depend a lot on temporary residents (young transplanted couples in school or just starting careers in the big city).

    I think a lot about the idea of language based wards/branches and how much of that is culture. The culture of poor, inner city Atlanta is almost as different from white, upper class suburban Atlanta as that it is from Vietnamese culture. Should we have the right to worship with members of our own community like we have the right to worship with members who speak the same language? What does it mean to missionary work to have a critical mass of members of a certain demographic group in a ward that their investigator will attend? What are the implications of the pie wedge vs. blob ward in a country where churches are the most segregated institution left? What are the implications of the pie wedge vs. blob in a church who values unity and purports to have stakes of Zion?

  46. Bookslinger, having been a stake seminary supervisor, I can tell you that a lot of problems are avoided when seminaries follow school district lines, so I see the wisdom in that division.

    claire, thanks for that historical overview–it makes sense. The rest of your questions are very good, very difficult ones that really deserve their own post.

  47. re: dividing a city like a pie, the issue then would be distance to church buildings, I would think…

  48. I don’t think the “sides” are talking about the same thing.
    People who do ward-shop talk about a good fit for their children. having enough friends, a ward not too big or too tiny
    People against ward shopping are talking about shirking duty, refusing to serve, racism and classism.
    I just don’t see it.

    Our last ward was unacceptable all around. Summary- a *bad* influence on my kids. Depressing to attend. And contrary to assumptions *too* white, suburban, and *not enough* service. Coupled with a bad commute, isolating suburban town, and bad weather, the need to move was obvious. So, when leaving of course we ward-shopped! It would have been irresponsible to let that happen again! Our spirituality and feelings about church were floundering, and the kids needed a positive primary experience to counter the awful influence.

    I won’t bore you with how we know we picked the right place and how we’re blossoming here. But I will promise it is more diverse racially and economically. More urban. More feeding the hungry and visiting the sick.
    One of our gaols was to get that diversity. We value it. So don’t assume we, or anybody, were fleeing diversity, that it was too uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable growing my kids in absence of diversity!

  49. It’s interesting and thought provoking to discuss the theoretical aspects of drawing ward boundaries and ward shopping. But my passions are at the grass roots level.

    You can try to shop for a ward, but realistically you can’t possibly know the true nature of a ward nor what its future might be.

    Here are some of the nightmare scenarios that I’ve seen in my life:
    –my uncle was excommunicated after having an affair with one of the students in the BYU ward he was bishop of.
    –my brothers got their first alcohol from boys in their priesthood quorums in Utah.
    –there was a pedophile in our last ward.
    –our current ward is still recovering from a former bishop who had an affair with a member.

    I guess what I’m saying is that you can attend any ward a few times and decide that its youth program or primary is your dream come true. But after awhile in any ward, you’re going to see the imperfections. You’d better have the tools to deal with it, and you’d better have given your children the tools, too, or it will be very easy to blame the ward for your own family’s testimony issues when they arise. (As they inevitably do.)

    So as not to end on a downer–If you seek virtuous, lovely, of good report, and praiseworthy things and people, you’ll find them everywhere, including the ward or branch you live in. And if you and your kids are building testimonies at home, it won’t matter so much if the YW or Primary is small and struggling.

    I’m new to this blogging thing, so forgive me if I sound uptight. I’ll try to relax!

    LB

    P.S. By the way, in case anyone is worried, my kids have rules for self-protection, and they apply even when with their youth leaders and the Bishop. Oh, and the pedophile is in jail now. Whew!

  50. RE: #48. The Handbook of Instructions says that only the First Presidency can authorize someone to be a member of a ward in which they do not reside.

  51. I attended a ward for two years while living outside its boundaries (outside my stake boundaries as well). The High Council approved it… I was an unbaptized teenage convert who didn’t have a car, and all the members at my high school went to seminary etc. at the same building. My senior year, due to a lot of self consciousness about my parent’s divorce, I started attending the ward I lived in. It was a “newly wed/nearly dead” ward in what was percieved to be a “weaker” stake. I felt more accepted in this much poorer ward with a teeny youth program, and it was a huge blessing for me to be baptized into that ward. I found that both stakes had a lot of misconceptions about each other. I considered it divine intervention when the two stakes got joined together about a year ago. Missionary work has exploded in our area, and I think unity in the wards and stakes has influenced that.

    What’s funny to me is that, in this same area, YSAs are pretty much allowed to go to any YSA ward they want. I wonder if it’s because the “implications” of being in a particular ward are percieved as “greater” as far as finding a mate? It’s funny to me because nobody really seems to be getting married out of our YSA ward, with its members from at least five or six stakes.

  52. i had never heard of ward shopping till we moved here. people we’ve talked to said once they find a house they like, they attend the wards or, alternately, they decide on a general area and buy in a neighborhood based on the wards they’ve visited.

    for us, i guess we’re doing a version of ward shopping… we already live in the world’s best ward and want/need to move, but i am only willing to do so if it means we stay within ward boundaries. most of the ward knows this and keeps an eye on neighbors’ homes and the likes. unfortunately, living where we do, economics plays too huge a role to be terribly picky about where we live.

    as for “we just wanted to move,” i can relate. we’re a former military family who moved seven times between october of 2003 and may of 2006. i have a horrendous itch to move right now. i’m not used to settling into a ward and i’ve always felt very transient. we’ve lived in lots of military wards where everyone felt the same, so it’s really weird for us to be around people with such a permanent mindset. they think we’re odd because we don’t think about our presence here as being permanent.

  53. I have been generally turned off by members of the church “ward shopping.” For example, when I was YW pres. in a previous ward I remember a family who was looking to move to our area visited our Wednesday night activity and asked me all kinds of questions about the ward, the youth,etc. It really annoyed me to see this kind of blatant ward shopping. On the other hand, I can understand a family’s concern. When it comes down to it, though, shouldn’t we have a little more trust that wherever we go Heavenly Father will help us be instruments in His hands, whether it’s what we prefer or not. I’m also concerned that we often forget that “perception is not reality.” So Julie, could it be that what you perceive about what it would be like to be in those other wards, is not necessarily the way it would be for you?

  54. Shannon,

    Without sharing too many details, my association with these wards has been very close over the past five years and so I am fairly confident in my assessments. I think ward shopping by grilling the YW pres. is tacky, not to mention that popping in to one event is unlikely to produce useful information.

    Interestingly, I’ve recently looked at a couple of houses in ward #4, a ward which I know nothing about. So I’d be fine moving to ward #4. I think my problem is that, knowing what I do about ward #1, it would make it very hard to deliberately move there. I guess ignorance really is bliss.

  55. Could it be that some members (including myself) feel like it is doing their part to visit a neighborhood and Ward before they can expect to get inspiration about where the Lord wants them to live?

  56. My parents recently moved and part of their motivation was to get out of the ward before it could damage any more of their children. They would not buy a house until they went to the ward first. Seeking to protect your children cannot be a sin.

  57. Julie, I love your post and appreciate your guilt.

    Stop me if I’ve said this before, but once, years ago, a newly married couple visited my ward and asked, “We are considering moving to this ward and wonder if there will be any leadership positions opening up in the near future.”

    I kid you not, this is true.

    I have neighborhood shopped before, but never specifically “ward-shopped”–although it’s a difficult distinction in Utah. When we moved to the house we currently live in I asked questions, in the most roundabout possible way I could, to find out if it was a snobby area. The lots were big and the houses nice–and we wanted a nice house on a big lot, too. But I did not want to live in an area where the size of your home (or paycheck) was the determining factor in how righteous you were deemed. (Yes, I know places like that, but over the course of a few decades the demographics have changed.)

    Last summer, however, we were looking to buy a lot in Utah Valley to build on. After narrowing down our choices we actually did what we have never done before. We visited each ward. We went fasting and praying and searching for guidance about where would be best, but we also did the legwork and made judgments about what each ward had to offer.

    Honestly, I’m surprised we didn’t do it before. When the ward you live in can have such a huge impact on your children–both positive and negative–it seems so odd to me that, in the past, we looked at tons of houses, parks, recreation programs, schools–and yet NEVER looked at the ward! It seems lacking in common sense.

    Would anyone claim that it showed a lack of faith to look at various homes to compare or to check out school programs before making a decision? Why would visiting a ward before making a decision to present to the Lord be any different?

    FWIW, it was the visits that made the decision easy.

  58. “We are considering moving to this ward and wonder if there will be any leadership positions opening up in the near future.””

    We’ve thought about asking that, too, because if the answer is ‘yes’, then we know to move somewhere else. :)

  59. #64 “We visited each ward. We went fasting and praying and searching for guidance about where would be best, but we also did the legwork and made judgments about what each ward had to offer.”
    I like that. I know, from experience, that doing that in the right spirit can be the answer to a desparate question.

    On the other hand, what can *I* or *my family* offer the ward? Is it possible that after we see it all, and we choose the worst, it is only to discover *we* were the answer to *their* prayers?

  60. 67 On the other hand, what can *I* or *my family* offer the ward? Is it possible that after we see it all, and we choose the worst, it is only to discover *we* were the answer to *their* prayers?

    Amen! (see last sentence in my #8 above)

    Or, that could be the answer to your prayers for a different reason.

  61. Sinema,
    Thanks for the info. It seems that ward squatting is something our area isn’t aware of or isn’t very strict about. I wonder if things are as loose in other parts of the country and world.

  62. I just moved from Austin – possiblly from the infamous Ward #1. There was probably only one young man in the quorum that had a stable home life. If we hadn\’t moved, I think I could have best served the needs of the youth by offering free legal services in Texas juvenile proceedings. Quorum service involved both fulfilling the Duty to God requirements, as well as someone\’s probation requirements. The thought of raising my own children in the ward scared me.

    That being said, the most rewarding church service I\’ve experienced was in that ward as a young men\’s leader. Maybe it was just being needed. If I didn\’t fulfill my calling, nobody else was going to step in. The diversity in the ward was remarkable. In the teacher\’s quorum each young man came from a different ethnicity and background. The most devoted saints I\’ve met lived in that ward and committed an enormous amount of their time and effort to serving others.

    Now would I like to raise my own children in that ward? No. If I moved back to Austin, would I buy a home in that ward\’s boundaries? Not without a good deal of prayer and a leap of faith. If I did feel inspiration in the matter, I think I would close my eyes and leap. Or maybe I would take a peak at the schools, and my potential neighbors, and my proximity to Zilker Park, and the local swimming pools, and … As much as I\’m capable of closing my eyes and leaping, I think I would try it.

  63. Like others have said, we’d all do well to remember JFK’s, “Ask not what your [ward] can do for you, but what you can do for your [ward].”

  64. How about modifying that to say, “Ask what your ward can do your you, and what you can do for your ward.”

  65. I am betting that when JFK said that originally, people were only allowed to ask one question. So you had to pick between the two. These days with we can ask multiple questions.

  66. I\’ve never explicitly ward-shopped, but I have stake-shopped. I live in an area where the church is strong, and there are several stakes within reasonable commuting distance of my job. (I don\’t live in Utah, and reasonable, with traffic, is a relative term.) I\’m a YSA, and, for reasons that are really the subject of another conversation, I choose to attend a family ward instead of a singles\’ ward. There is a lot of pressure on YSAs in my area to attend singles wards, especially if there is a singles ward within the stake.
    While it wasn\’t the determining factor, I did choose to live within one of the two (out of 12) stakes without a singles ward. It has been an enormous blessing, both to me, and to my ward. I moved from a stake where I was under constant pressure to go to a singles ward, and where I only had a minor calling, and I felt like I wasn\’t doing much good. My spirituality suffered because of the lack of service opportunities.
    When the time came to move, it was like night and day. In my new ward (I\’ve been here for about a year), there still aren\’t very many YSAs, but nobody has tried to pressure me to go away. I feel welcomed, and I feel like I\’m contributing. I serve in nursery, which makes the ward leadership happy, because they always have trouble filling that calling. I\’m getting a chance to grow and to serve.

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